Yesterday i went to an Adventist/Muslim Relations seminar held in the Thailand SDA Mission compound. The two speakers were Rick McEdwards, and Jerald Whitehouse. Rick McEdwards is the Global Mission leader for the Southern-Asia Pacific Division, while Jerald Whitehouse is the leader of the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference organization called Global Center for Adventist-Muslim Relations.
Both of these men were very nice, spoke in a friendly manner, and seemed knowledgeable about their subject. With about 5% of the population in Thailand being Muslim, it is important to know how to reach them, to tell them about Jesus Christ. And while some good things were taught, the main idea was definitely not.
Brother Rick gave his talk first, and he mentioned that “We are ambassadors. I don’t call someone to be a citizen of my country. If someone wants to become a citizen of my country, i must help them.” hmmmm This sounds quite foreign to what the disciples did of preaching about Jesus, and baptizing in Jesus’ name, and resolving not to do anything except uplift Jesus….
He continued with “Why develop relationships with Muslims?”
1. Build relationships of mutual understanding
A. To clear misunderstandings listen and study
B. Develop relationship of trust
C. Takes sincere dialogue and discussion
2. Socialize with people of other cultures
3. Encourage each other to submit lives to God
Be united against secularism
4. Create communities of peace between religions
5. To build up God’s kingdom
While all these are admirable, except perhaps the study the other’s religion part, there is one glaring omission. Can you see it? Let’s continue with what the main speaker had to say.
Jerald Whitehouse said:
“All humans carry breath of God in them, so i should respect them.”
Then he quoted 2Tim. 2:23, 2Cor 5:17-18, Sura 29:46, and Sura 16:25. Here’s where anyone with an open heart should have started questioning what was going on – he was placing the Qur’an on the same level as the Bible. In fact, he made a point of telling us how much he respects the Qur’an, and showed us how he opens it carefully and lays it down carefully. Sura 29:46 says something about not arguing with the people of the Book (meaning not to argue with Christians or Jews), and 16:25 says something about “we worship the same God you do” (meaning their Allah is the same as the Christian “God”.) This is definitely a red-flag statement. He then went on to say, speaking like he was a Muslim, and saying softly out to the 40-45 in attendance – “We worship the same God you do”. I shook my head sideways.
A while later he said that the Christian’s problems, and the Muslim’s problems could be solved if “We each get back to our books”. I told the friend sitting next to me that the Qur’an was from Satan, so why would anyone tell people to get back to a Satanic book??? But there was general agreement, and everyone seemed happy.
He then went into detail in explaining “Who are we as Seventh-day Adventists?”
He covered some of the early history of how our church came to be which was interesting, but his main thrust was excellent in one respect, and horrible in another. He said we should not see ourselves as one of many Protestant denominations. I believe that is very good advice! He said we are a world-wide movement, encompassing all religions and all faiths. WHAT?! He had drawn little lines under “Catholic”, and “Protestant” with “SDA” under the “Protestant” one, and erased “SDA” and then wrote some other religions to the right side, and drew “Seventh-day Adventist Movement” with a big arc over the top of all of them. I too believe that we must give the message to everyone, but do not believe that we must someone disconnect ourselves from our Protestant roots to do that. I learned later why he desired us to perceive ourselves this way.
He continued, saying “I’m not Christian, I’m Adventist”. He gave the reason for saying this along the lines of: “Muslims ask me if i’m a Christian, but if i say yes, they will immediately pigeonhole me as someone who eats pork, drinks alcohol, is sexually loose, is a blasphemer, and who is a polytheist. So i just tell them {I’m an Adventist}. They don’t know what i’m talking about, so i can explain that i believe in Creation and in the soon return of Jesus. This creates bridges of understanding.”
One man in the audience from Lebanon said that in his country SDAs don’t even use the name “Seventh-day” as that automatically gets them connected with Jews in peoples’ minds. This statement was met with agreement all around.
All along, i kept thinking that someone would ask some deep questions, but they never came. The questions and comments all were along the lines of “How should i shake hands with a Muslim?” “What if i go to their home when only the wife is at home?” etc. These are all good questions relating to protocol, but do not come anywhere close to the heart of what is being taught to us here today – that is – that the God of the Muslims and the God of the Christians is the same.
Jerald Whitehouse continued with a few more statements that i wrote down, such as: “To defend Christianity is to deny my faith with Muslims.” “Connect with the 2nd Advent Message.” And “You are there to strengthen Muslim’s faith.” After this last, blatant statement, i quit taking notes, as it was too obvious for anyone to miss anymore – This man is a Mulim convert in the heart, trying to evangelize Seventh-day Adventists!!!
I know that sounds far-fetched, but how else can it be? Yes, of course i know he is not an undercover agent of the Muslims or Jesuits, sent to infiltrate the church. But he has so conditioned himself, steeled himself against the facts – that Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus Christ and vehemently deny that Jesus is the Son of God, that he has succeeded in deceiving himself into believing that he does not need to CHANGE a Muslim’s faith – just “strengthen” it. And he is open about not wanting to defend Christianity. One example he used of not wanting to defend Christianity, is that his Muslim friends equate Christian policy with President George Bush’s foreign policy. He laughed uproariously, as did probably 80% of the attendees. I turned to my friend at this point and said “He is going directly against what God said to do. God said to “Honor the king”. How does he know but what George Bush may be directly being used by God?” There was one other snide remark against George Bush, both of which i feel sorry that any leader of my church would ever do. Would you like to make those remarks in the presence of the President, Jerald? Would you like to meet them when we are all arraigned before the judgement seat of Christ in that Grand and Awful day? Will they seem so funny then?
The meeting was drawing to a close, and still i had not made any comments yet. I knew God has led me there to give a straight testimony, and i was hoping to make it clearly in front of all so that the core issue being raised could be addressed. But i could not find that opportunity, and the meeting closed. Sigh…..
When the meeting was over i quickly made my way to the front. Expecting to see a crowd surrounding Mr. Whitehouse, i was surprised to find myself alone standing near him. I asked: “When building relationships with Muslims, at what point do you show them from the Bible that Jesus is the Son of God?” I held my Bible open to 1John 2:22 which says “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” He looked at it about a quarter of a second, and said “I know about that, but what about this?” He then took my Bible and turned to Matthew 16:13, and read to me: “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” He then spent 3 or 4 minutes explaining to me that Jesus didn’t go around telling people that he was the Son of God, so we shouldn’t either. He even quoted something from Desire of Ages – around page 506-507 to bolster his case. I answered his questions courteously, and listened, then asked how long it would take before he would tell his Muslim friends that Jesus was the Son of God. He got a bit flustered, and made a statement that sounded to me like doing that might break the relationship, so maybe it wouldn’t be done at all.
Then i brought up the point that brought down the house. I said: “because once they understand that Jesus is the Son of God, they will also learn that the book they thot was holy, is actually from Satan”. WHEW! Did that ever cause an instant reaction! The IAEA might want to check the radioactivity it gave off!! He got very angry, and asked in a rough voice if i came to teach him, or to learn from him. I answered that i came to tell him the truth, and that he should repent, and tell his Muslim friends the whole truth about Jesus Christ and the Qur’an. He was busy packing his things by now, but he stood up straight, and looked me squarely in the eyes, and said “If you say that here, i will have you thrown out.” I replied: “I’ve read the Qur’an, and i do know that one of the main themes of the book is that Allah has no son.” His reply? “Do you know Arabic?” I replied that while i had studied it a bit, i do not understand it.” His face brightened, and then he said “How can you know what it says if you can’t understand Arabic?” Well, i admit this answer shocked me, as HE had quoted something in English from the Qur’an in HIS talk, and this “only in Arabic can really understand Allah’s words argument is exactly what the Qur’an itself says, so i said “It sounds like you are a true Muslim.” He went back to packing his books, and one lady who had come up started to ask him something, so i got my backpack and walked out.
What do i make of it? I believe that Jerald Whitehouse has convinced himself so deeply that the Qur’an is true, that he doesn’t care about anything the Bible says. Notice the text again in 1John 2:22 “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” His explanation did not even touch the “denieth the Father” part at all. In fact, in his talk, he said he specifically avoids using the term “Father” to refer to God when talking with Muslims so as not to offend them. That is antichrist sir, not me talking, but God talking. Please repent, and uplift Jesus Christ (not Isa!) and the FATHER.
So this is the way our church is going? Our leaders are mocking the President of the United States for being Christian, telling us not to tell Muslims that we are Christian, that the Muslim God and our God is the same, that the Qur’an which talks about marrying 4 wives – eating camel meat – doing good things to atone for sins – that Jesus didn’t die on the cross – to fight for Allah and slay all the idolators – that this book is describing the same God we Christians serve?!?! That somehow the Catholics and Protestants are horrible warmongers and the Muslims are peace-loving victims? I will not believe it, and hoping that no one else will be deceived either is the reason i put this information on the internet.
I walked with 2 attendees out to the main road to the bus stop. One of them said she is interested now in purchasing a Qur’an. The other one said “well…maybe we can use some good things out of the Qur’an to lead Muslims to Jesus. I asked them to consider if Jesus would use a Baal worshipper’s book to try and show them the way to Jesus. “Welllllll…. Goodbye”.
May God keep our souls pure and spotless, and may we all have courage to give the straight message to everyone, Muslim included.
I too have read the Qur’an, and own one. I started witnessing to a fellow worker who happens to be dedicated Muslim. But after a short while, he refrained me from even speaking to him about the Qur’an, because I am trying to change the way he has been brought up to think (so he says). And that I must not talk religion with him anymore.
Why did he say this? He said it because I was telling him what the Qur’an said about God and His covenant with His people. There certainly is so much we can use in the Qur’an for witnessing to the Muslims. You won’t have a show if you reject their only source of authority, if you want to reach the Muslim people. But if you are keen, and you have a concern for their salvation, you certainly can use their very own authorotative book, and point them to the Bible, and to Jesus. I agree with you, not everything in the Qur’an is trustworthy, but there is ample for us to use. Get an Arabic Bible and go to John 3:16. You will see that it is Allah who so loved the world that He gave His only Son…
Did you know that in the Quran, we can find all of our fundamental doctrines execpt the SOP doctrine? The state of the dead, the millennium, the new earth, THE SABBATH, and many more of our doctrines are in the Qur’an. If you are wise as a serpent, you will use their authority to direct them to the truth as it is in Christ.
Maranatha
Marco
Marco, The question is: Is it best to be upfront about that with a seeker, or wait and lead them using the book and try to wean them away from it?
.
I do understand the rationale of using the Qur’an to witness to Muslims. I’ve read the book myself, but don’t recommend it. As soon as i finished reading it, and in thinking of what to reply to you, i thot about what Jesus would do – Would Jesus use the Book of Baal worship to try to win the Baal followers to the true God?
.
Highly unlikely.
.
The fact is, the Muslim who is led to Christ will have to face the fact that the Allah depicted in the Qur’an is not God at all – but the enemy of God.
we have to talk more regarding the Adventist Muslim Relations please send me an email
Spot on! Keep on wielding the sword of the spirit! I attend an SDA CHURCH in Coffs Harbour. Please explain Psalm 110:1
Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Exactly Brother. Obviously Jesus is Lord too.
teejhel, i sent you a email 2 months ago. You replied that Muslims worship the same God we SDAs do. That is not correct, as no one can worship the Father unless they go thru the Son.
“O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit [sic.] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers and say not ‘Three’ – Cease! (it is better for you! – Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son…The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah.”
Of Jesus Christ The Koran also states:
“And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! The folk laugh out, and say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise not the objection save for argument. Nay! but they are a contentious folk. He is nothing but a slave on whom we bestowed favor, and we made him a pattern for the Children of Israel. And had we willed it we would have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth”.
Regarding Christ’s death on the Cross, The Koran says:
“That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah. But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. … And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness against them (Christians).” (Koran, 4:156-159)
The Koran even has Jesus Himself saying:
“Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One.”
http://endrtimes.blogspot.com/
The source for the above post.
rthomas, You might want to take a look at my site:
http://www.timeoftrouble.com
to see a fairly detailed comparison of major differences between the Qur’an and the Bible.
.
This is all so clear and open, how can any SDA be deceived by thinking that the Muslims worship the same God we do?
1 Corinthians 9
19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham’s father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
reference on usc website
Allah’s prophet is really disgusting!
SURA [16:25] They will be held responsible for their sins on the Day of Resurrection, all of them, in addition to sins of all those whom they misled by their ignorance. What a miserable load! I think you took in the wrong way what the speaker said, because If I understand and compare this SURA with 2Cor 5:17-18, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation” we have Jesus our Savior who take our sins and we are new creature. I think he tried to show the grace of Jesus.
sam, the speaker basically showed that he believes Mohammed was a good man, and Jesus was a good man. Jerald Whitehouse, the speaker, even said that the Muslims should “go back to their book”!!!
i do believe God will use every means to reach the unreachable. He is more concern of people and of saving them..
The bible also have stories of multiple marriages, killing and immorality. but we never see it as if the bible is telling us to do so.
Koran will be of great use in reaching the Muslim people. But of course we must tell them of Jesus Christ. Never denying our christianity, uplifting Jesus in all ways no matter what happen.
Lets ask ourselves WHAT WILL JESUS DO??
With Humility and Love He will loss it all to save and to seek the lost.
What will Jesus do?
.
Exactly mich!
.
And in reading the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, i can find nowhere that God tells his people to use satanic-inspired material to lead them to Jesus.
and its only in you that i heard that koran is satanic inspired? im not so acquianted of the koran and you might be more knowledgeable than me. so if you could site from the koran that will make it a satanic inspired book then it would be appreciated.
thank you..
Hello mich,
I don’t recommend it, but read the entire Qur’an myself several years ago. I put up a comparison of it and the Bible, highlighting the more serious errors of the Qur’an.
http://www.timeoftrouble.com/quran/quotes-from-quran.html
.
Please notice, that i DO recognize that up to about 80% of the Qur’an sounds quite like the Bible, and says good things, but there is enough poison there to make any true-in-heart person see that it is directly opposed to Jesus Christ.
.
Here are some of the more egregious errors in the Qur’an
.
Sura 2 says: “Fight in the way of Allah”.
Sura 4 says that Jesus wasn’t crucified.
Sura 22 says boiling fluid and iron hooks in immortal pain are for the doomed in Allah’s hell.
Sura 25 says to pray for “many destructions”.
Sura 43 says that Jesus Christ is “nothing but a slave…”
Sura 56 describes a playboy lifestyle for those who go to Allah’s heaven.
Sura 112 says Allah didn’t “beget” anybody (so he has no son).
I agree with some of the statemens you make but I cant figure out what you mean in regards to honouring or dishonouring the American president George Bush? Are you seriously saying that Bush is a Christian and therefore should not be criticized? Is any ‘earthly authority’ to be respected then? Even Adolf Hitler, for example?
Dear brother,
First of all I really respect your opinion about Adventist-Muslim Relation. From your statements above, I may conclude that you sounded angry when talk about Adventist Muslim Relation. I really understand your feeling. I strongly believe that you too an Adventist. Well, I myself an Adventist. I attended the same seminar as you did, but with different speaker, our speaker is Pr Ranny De Vera, Field Director of AMR in Philippines. I just to add some additional information, and perhaps with permission and your willing, I like to make few corrections about your above statements. Regarding the Muslim can married until 4 wives, now, dear brother, as your stated that Quran permits Muslim to married 4 wives is incorrect. Quran never ever mentioned or no ever be found in it that Muslim can marry 4 wives, Quran never permits it in fact Quran forbid to marry more than one wife. Perhaps you wonder, than if not from Quran than where it is from that Muslim can married 4 wives, well brother, it is Muslim tradition called the Syariah that permits them to married 4 wives. Quran never allow the act, in fact forbid it same as our Holy Scriptures does (i got this information from the seminar). Lets go on, dear brother, you also add that Quran defy the divinity of Jesus Christ, I must say I agree with you, but after I attended last seminar of the AMR entitled Muslim in Bible Prophecy, I learned something, that Quran doesn’t defy the divinity of Christ, this is because in Quran, there was stated that the Muslim in the Day of Judgement, they need an intercessor / lawyer during the Judgement Day, however, Quran didn’t tell who is the intercessor / lawyer, but in our Holy Scriptures tell us that Christ is our lawyer / intercessor during the Judgement Day doesn’t it? In Muslim, they believe that Prophet Muhammad is the intercessor BUT if they really into the Quran, make a deep research and understanding to it, the Quran itself actually lead them to ours Holy Scriptures to find who is actually the intercessor is, which is Christ. So, Quran actually does not deny divinity of Christ because the Quran never mentioned about it. For brother information, as far our Holy Scriptures being revised through times changes, so do to the Quran.
I love to share and discuss more. Please mail if brother like to discuss and share more info with me. I glad and please to have it.
Thank you
May Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen
GBU
I like to add here, my statement “So, Quran actually does not deny divinity of Christ because the Quran never mentioned about it.” what I mean here is the first Quran written by hand of Prophet Muhammad not yet revised (I got this information from the seminar as well). However, please correct me if I make a wrong facts here. Please, please correct me.
When I first heard the lectures given by Adventist-Muslim Relations I was surprised with some of their strategies. First, they leave the impression to the muslim people that both the Bible and the Quran are the Words of God by denying the essential difference between the two books historically and theologically. Second, they teach that Allah and Yahweh of the Bible is just the same God. Without considering the historical fact that Allah is just one of the names of 365 pagan gods worshipped before the time of Islam. There is also some information from the scholars that Allah is another name for Baal? I believe there is a compromise of faith here. I’m an Adventist too. I have an apologetic ministry to the Muslims. You can visit my site to watch some videos on my debates with the muslims here http://www.sdanswers.webs.com. God Bless!
KY, you sound really sincere in understanding how to reach Muslims. Yes, i’m angry that our church leaders are mixing Christ with Baal, so i am speaking out against this.
.
First, i would advise you to read part of the Qur’an before saying what it does and does not say. No, i don’t think it is good to read this book as it is against God, but you are entrusting your beliefs to people like Ranny De Vera who is either lying to you, or who is just regurgitating what he has been lied to about.
.
Sura 4:3 If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers – you may marry two, three, or four…
.
Sura 33:50 “50 O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom you have paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesses of those whom Allah has given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father’s side and the daughters…” yucko.
.
So i’ve shown two places now, both in the Qur’an itself, that show that polygamy is fine. Please remember, this is 600 years AFTER Jesus.
.
The Qur’an definitely DOES deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.
.
In talking about Jesus —-
Sura 43:59 He is nothing but a slave on whom We bestowed favour, and We made him a pattern for the Children of Israel.
.
No, the Qur’an does not lead anyone to Christ. If it leads to Christ, then why for almost 1400 years has it led people AWAY from Christ?
.
As far as i’ve studied, Muhammed never wrote any part of the Qur’an.
.
Please Brother, you seem sincere. I advise you to get more information before you tell others things that are untrue. Please look at my comparison of the Qur’an and Bible at:
http://www.timeoftrouble.com/quran/quotes-from-quran.html
.
.
SDAnswers – Agreed. Is your web site working now?
WOW what an interesting read. As a Christian who became a practising Muslim 13 years ago who is now studying the Bible with the Quran in preparation to marry a SDA. I would just like to say that the English translations of the Bible has false statements in it as do Quranic translations. IF WE ALL GO BACK TO OUR BOOKS we will see that the fundamental differences are as small as a grain of sand. We do not accept Christ as the son of God but he was one of God’s children as WE ALL are. For you or I to insist our religion is the ONLY way is surly to say that God is to weak to make us do what HE wants? I can not accept this, HE loves diversity this has been proven to me by falling in love with a Christian, a deadly sin for a woman to most Muslims. But we asked ourself how could this happen. The answer a good person is better than a bad one, as easy as that! He has been broken by dirty, adulterous Christian women, I’ve been hurt by lying, deceitful Muslim men? The point is THE ONE GOD put us together and allowed our friendship to blossom into true love, BECAUSE OF OUR RELIGION, we have so much in common our beliefs in food, life, family AND God are the same. Yes we differ when it comes to Jesus but we respect each others love for him too, I am not ashamed to admit that as a practising Christian I was quite indifferent to Jesus (may God forgive me) BUT as a Muslim I have a love and respect for Jesus that has led me to cry in public when my relationship with him (Jesus) was attacked.
In the end if we could spend more time on correcting our own faults, we would naturally attract followers, but whilst we are always attacking and criticising people who’s views are different NO ONE will ever win and we will become a world of religion hating atheists. The common fight is to get people to love God and know Jesus to begin with, The God will guide us on the rest. I believe the Quran where it teaches me that everything will be resolved when Jesus comes back to earth to fight the devil on the last day.
May God bless and keep us all and protect us from sin and evil.
Ameen
FM, that is a very interesting comment. One part of it was: “IF WE ALL GO BACK TO OUR BOOKS we will see that the fundamental differences are as small as a grain of sand”.
.
It is this thinking that is exactly opposite to the Bible, and is what i’m trying to wake Christians up to – that there is no compromise between Christ and Satan. You see, the Bible says that anyone who denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is a liar, and the truth is not in him. The Qur’an does that, so we know for certain that it is not from God. If it is not from God, then who is it from? Please consider this question deeply, and may the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth.
Thank you Pr Ronald and Bro Daniel for your generous input and corrections made for my statements. I’m very interested into this type of discussion and happy about having this kind of discussion rather than being silence about this, for its help us to understand more and more about the relationship and the facts which we should know between our faith. Nevertheless, through this kind of discussion I personally hope that the gospel shall be preached among Moslem friends as well so they would not be left behind for knowing the Light.
Yes KY, We must do something to help the Muslims come to Jesus Christ, the only hope of salvation.
.
Did you know that Ranny De Vera is going to be one of the speakers at Faith Camp Asia soon? If you know his email address, please tell me, as i wish to contact him directly.
That’s marvellous. When will the Faith Camp Asia begin and where is the venue which the camp to be held? Unfortunately, I don’t have his contact since I’m searching for it too.
Hello KY, this is the url for the Faith Camp Asia:
http://www.faithcampasia.org
.
It will be in Silang, Cavite, so i guess they are targeting AAIS and AUP. It would be great if you could get more info on Muslims, and have good questions for Brother Ranny De Vera. I pray his eyes will be opened, if he is really saying what you say you heard him say….
Hello, I have read all of this.
I own a Quran
I have read it a little
I own a Bible
I have read it a lot (as an SDA)
I do agree that it does not pass the
God’s prophet test.
1. God’s law
2. Jesus Faith
I am really interested on learning about antichrist movements.
I have one question.
is it possible that Bible explains,
as every SDA knows,
the history of the false church that
will try to change the times and the law
and It does not say anything
about Muslim religion that has became so big?
I am sure there must be at least one prophecy about this as a warning!
I have had the pleasure of taking a class taught by Jerald Whitehouse. I think it is a sad thing that we can come away from such a short meeting with such a devisive attitude. I count it a real privelidge to have studied under him, and found him in no way to move away from the truth that is upheld by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
The sad truth is, that many people, even in our own church, are not willing to do proper communication. The first key to successful communication is to seek to understand the other. If we really sit and listen to Jerald Whitehouse and seek to understand what he is saying, we won’t come away thinking such evil thoughts about him. One of our troubles is that we are always looking for conspiracies and infiltrators. If I think everyone is an infiltraitor, I will not trust anyone. But I thank God that He has given me His Spirit to guide me, His work to instruct me, and a brain to think with.
After going through a Graduate level course with Jerald Whitehouse, my life has been changed, my vision has shiftend, and I am amazed at the opportunities that God has given us. If there is any question about God’s desire for us to be reaching out to the Muslims, let us look at the incredible number of stories coming out of Muslim lands where the Imam’s are visited by angelic beings who instruct them to keep the Sabbath day. Let us listen to how God has worked upon the hearts of the powerful Imams of the world and how some become friends to Seventh-day Adventists. And let us remember the great devide that the enemy has attempted to create between us and them, and realize that it is not important for us to come away from an encounter with another from a different faith having crammed down all of our precious fundamental beliefs in one setting. The Gospel must be presented in an acceptable manner and in the time God directs. We are so misinformed when we think the thing that saves us is the message we have. If you had to accept each of the 28 fundamental beliefs before being saved, how many of us have perfectly accepted them. It is not in the light of our Gospel. It is in the light of His Righteousness. Let us get our minds off of the works and teachings long enough to ensure our lives have been sacrificed to His design, and that we have learned to surrender our character and actions to Him. If this were the case, many of the words spoken here would never have been spoken.
If we really want to know for sure about who the God the Muslims worship is, and if it could be the same as our God or not, we need not be offended. We have been given the gifts of the Spirit, the Word, and a mind, let us use them. I have no problem seeing many around the world worshiping the same God, even if they don’t know Him the same. After all, there are many gods (little g), but there is only one God (big G)!
In reply to Joseph’s remark about marrying a six year old and consumating a marriage at 9. It is unthinkable to do such a thing in our own “civilized” or so we think, worlds. But if we look in our own histories, we don’t have to go very far to realize that young marriages were very common at times in history, and the life expectancy was often in the 30’s. I understand that one of the states in the United States still allows marriage of 13 year old girls with parental consent. That’s not so far off of 6 and 9 years old. Hmmm. We like to paint terrible pictures of others to prove we are in the right, just as we did when we were children, pointing out siblings or playmates errors in effort to make ourselves look better. But in effect, when we post insulting statements to Muslims, such as the statement posted “Allah’s prophet is really disgusting” on May 28th, in response to the statement about the early marriage, we are not showing we are right. On the contrary, we are showing our own dirty laundry. We will never do good with this negative approach. In fact, all that it is done for, is in self gratification and self support of our own beliefs. If we ever expect to reach Muslims, posts such as the above, which would be seen as very offensive to a Muslim, should never be stated, let alone be allowed to remain on this websight. I am ashamed that we would associate the name Seventh-day Adventist with such slanderous attacks, no matter how much we feel that we are correct or not. Let us work on ourselves and our own nasty characters before trying to correct the wrong we see in the world. If we correct ourselves enough, allowing the Righteousness of Christ to dwell within us, even those “wrongs” we saw the world performing will not be prevailent in our motives and approaches. We cannot share truth by being unkind.
eager, It seem that surely there is something about Islam in the Bible, to warn people against it, but i don’t see it directly stated. There is nothing specifically about Buddhists or Hindus either, each numbering in the hundreds of millions of adherents. Let me know what your studies reveal.
Andrew, Your comments are almost textbook-classic to show how “educated” people are the same today as in Christ’s day. You use the same logic as the Scribes and Pharisees in Jesus’ day to prove your point – but beware that the same result does not happen to you!
.
You write: “found him in no way to move away from the truth that is upheld by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.” What Jerald Whitehouse teaches is directly opposite the Bible, where Jesus says “No one comes to the Father except thru me”. Jerald Whitehouse says, like you “I have no problem seeing many around the world worshiping the same God, even if they don’t know Him the same.”
.
These are words of Satan. He is trying to get all religions into one, and you are supporting that goal. Please repent.
.
Salvation is ONLY thru Jesus Christ, and no one comes to the Father except thru him. Please pray and desire to follow the inspired words in the Bible above what some “educated” man says.
I searched for sites like this for a long time, and today I found you people making very interesting and awakening writings.
I am a SDA, wish to fortify myself with the Armour of God on how to face our Moslem friends.
An old ex-pastor from another protestant church was ‘attacked’ by 3 Moslem’s ‘Ustazs’, debating on bible truths. This oldster fend-off well most of the attacks but floundered in the area about the Trinity. This costs him his faith and became one of the district’s Christian Weak-Spot Provider to the Moslem District Office.
Your responses are greatly welcomed. Please.
Methinks we are still in the formative years of the evangelization to the muslims as a church. Fine, we may have missions in muslim countries, and pastors have been preaching to Muslims for a long time, but its only recently (last 10 years or so) that I have heard alot about Muslim Evangelism being promoted amongst church members.
If this assumption is correct, then its possible that we are still in the formative years, formulating our message and methodology. Meaning that extremes on both ends are likely, even welcome, as we seek the balance between Jesuit-like liberalism and Pharisaic conservatism. In which case it may help to pray that we get to that balance soon so that this work can spread like bush fire amongst the muslims.
Having attended an Adventist University (UEAB)-though not to do theology or ministry- and completed several courses and books on church history, I am amazed at how God works patiently to bring His people to agreement before pouring out his blessings for us to reach out.
Case in point: Not until the 1870s did the SDA church take missiology seriously. Why 1870s? because by then we had established a message to take out. Please also note that it was only after 1888 that Righteousness by Faith became fully understood in Adventism. Most likely, James White and Joseph Bates, two of the three most important contributers to what the church is today, may not have believed in the eternity of Christ or the Holy Spirit as a person, not force, yet behold what the Lord was able to do through them.
I wasn’t in this seminar, and yes, I agree the speaker went overboard in some of his statements, but it could as well be due to human error of judgement, not necessarily an “infiltrator” or a muslim convert. Do I then condemn your post? No. It is essential in getting this right balance. May we accept to be led by God to the place He wants us to be.
The Bible actually does have stuff to say on Muslims. Albeit not outright. An in depth study of the Seven Trumpets will show you. They are found in the Fifth and Sixth Trumpets. This is a study filled with study and is 20 printed pages on all & trumpets. Enjoy! http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/jswhite_trumpets1.html
sword2185, I also put up James White’s book called The Seven Trumpets on the internet last year, and gave it a “D”. You can read my full review on this blog at: http://great-controversy-movie.com/blog/?p=269
.
It is not possible that Islam is the 5th and 6th trumpet in the past. It may have something to do in the future with the trumpets, but i doubt it, because in the 5th trumpet they would have to be stinging themselves unless we believe that they have the seal of God in their foreheads!!!
This is basically a note to myself, the url for the article in Jeff Reich’s Laymen Ministry News magazine that eventually made us break off relations:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040821052935/www.lmn.org/magazine/174/08.muslims.html
.
Steve Parker, a board member on LMN, wrote the story, and when i asked for clarification of the “followers of the Creator God” (implying strongly that the Muslims and Christians worship the same God), and the “underground believers who not only must live, but must LIVE TO TELL” quote, both of which are quite contrary to traditional Christian teaching, i was basically told by both men that i am not understanding enough of the matter.
.
I want to be in harmony with my Brothers and Sisters, but when they promote a false god, one who says he has no son (!), how can i remain on the same road with them?
.
It is very interesting to me that soon after our email exchanges LMN took this whole magazine issue off the internet, and now i see have taken off the entire magazine section. It was interesting too, that the issue in which this article appeared was the last magazine that LMN every produced it seems.
.
Jeff, if you are reading this, please let’s talk and become one in heart like before when i went to India with your guidance, and like when i gave you the largest financial donation i’ve ever given anyone in my life. Please, let’s uplift Jesus – together.
From 1 July Pastor Petras Bahadur, currently serving as the Adventist
Muslim Relations (AMR) director for the South England Conference (SEC), will
be increasing his vision and
outreach by working on a 50% time as the Associate Director for the General
Conference Adventist Muslim Relations department.
.
Pastor Bahadur was born in Pakistan and was schooled in the Adventist
education system. He completed a BSc and MBA from the Philippines and began
working for the Pakistan Union as an Accountant, Business Lecturer and later
as Head of the Department of Business. He came to the UK in 1998 and began
studying for Community Development. He also worked as an Accountant in
London for five years before responding to the call to Ministry in 2003 and
pursuing studies at Newbold College for an MA in Theology. He has always
been active in outreach.
For individuals who think others are skeptics and worried about infilterators within the SDA church, you are right. Some of us endtime SDAs may go a bit overboard in our, perhaps wonder at the fulfilment of prophecy or the shere scale Adventism degeneration in our local churches all around. An atmosphere of distrust, fear and suspicion rains supreme in God’s SDA church today. Why? Because we have been infilterated from the Vatican II session in 1962. By the 70s, our doctrinal views began to change with the GC President Neal C. Wilson stating we are no longer different from Roman Catholics. Elder Bert Beach is well known for presenting the late pope John Paul II with a gold medallion on behalf of the SDA church as well as inviting several ecumenical dignitories to participate, observe, and on occasions, to chair SDA GC business meetings. in addition, among the procession at the 1995 GC session was the Vatican, with their representative also waving their flag. Remember, the SDA also changed its logo recently.
As soon as 911 happened in America, the SDA church emerged the AMR. Perhaps the church awaits another huge disaster to usher in Adventist Buddha Relations or Adventist Judaism Relations or Adventist Zoroaster Relations. Lets get one thing clear. Muslims never committed 911 crimes. The world powerful elite, spearheaded by the Vatican did. They created the religion of Islam to counter Xtianity. That is why a lot of their symbols are similar.
Pope John Paul II before he died kissed the Qu’ran as part of his ecumenical moves to unite all religions. He was seen worshipping at a Buddhist emple receiving the mark of Shiva, held an interfaith gathering in Assissi, 1986.
The new pope has followed in his footstep to continue to unite all religions including SDAs.
Is not therefore ironical that SDAs are now clasping hands with Rome and entirely plausible that AMR is just one of the Vatican tools to lure the SDA church into its global ecumenical movement.
All this is not to say as Adventists, we should avoid muslims. The Bible says go ye and teach all nations….it further tells us to preach the Three Angels’ Messages to the whole world. In these last days, we should not focus on one particular religion, but all peoples of all faiths.
BE WISE AS SERPENTS BUT AS HARMLESS AS DOVES….to be continued
bentley80, You say many truthful things, and several untruthful things. Yes, we MUST sigh and cry over the abominations done in Jerusalem (the SDA church), and you have done that here. But then you add ridiculous things like: “Muslims never committed 911 crimes. The world powerful elite, spearheaded by the Vatican did. They created the religion of Islam to counter Xtianity.”
.
Please stay away from this conspiracy garbage that is eroding the confidence others can have in our giving the Three Angels’ Messages.
daniel, you sound like a staunch Seventh-day Adventist. Please do a search on what Ellen White says about people who have never even heard of Jesus being in heaven. You will find it. It is important that you learn what it means to come to the Father through Jesus. Your understanding is a bit shallow. It is much deeper.
Dear daniel and others who think I might be spreading conspiracy garbage, this is for you. Make a thorough and I mean thorough research into the origin of Islam and its symbols. You will be immediately linked to Roman Catholicism…I cannot do this for you. You have to be open minded and quest for knowledge. Start with the moon crescent and star symbol, find out who was Mohammed’s wife, and why muslims use prayer beads like catholics. Then check out several videos of the twin towers collapsing… you will see that the planes did not bring the towers down. The towers simply became dust…a sign that explosives were used…several seismologists found molten larva at ground zero – the use of termite explosives….therefore, muslims fanatics cannot be blamed for that. Bear in mind that 80% of world media is controlled by Mr Murdoch, which means you and I can be told only what we want to hear. Do you know that on Sept 11, 2001, early that morning before so-called planes hit the towers,read this not by myself : WAR GAMES ON SEPTEMBER 11TH
On the very morning of 9/11/01, five war games and terror drills were being conducted by several U.S. defense agencies, including one “live fly” exercise using REAL planes. Then-Acting Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Richard B. Myers, admitted to 4 of the war games in congressional testimony — see transcript here or video here (6 minutes and 12 seconds into the video).
Norad had run drills for several years of planes being used as weapons against the World Trade Center and other U.S. high-profile buildings, and “numerous types of civilian and military aircraft were used as mock hijacked aircraft”. In other words, drills using REAL AIRCRAFT simulating terrorist attacks crashing jets into buildings, including the twin towers, were run. See also official military website showing 2000 military drill, using miniatures, involving a plane crashing into the Pentagon.
Indeed, a former Los Angeles police department investigator, whose newsletter is read by 45 members of congress, both the house and senate intelligence committees, and professors at more than 40 universities around the world, claims that he obtained an on-the-record confirmation from NORAD that ON 9/11, NORAD and the Joint Chiefs of Staff were conducting a joint, live-fly, hijack exercise which involved government-operated aircraft POSING AS HIJACKED AIRLINERS.
On September 11th, the government also happened to be running a simulation of a plane crashing into a building.
Also read this from USATODAY.CO. :
Posted 4/18/2004 10:22 PM Updated 4/19/2004 3:08 PM
Today’s Top News Stories
• 1 dead, 2 hurt in Mich. office shooting; police say suspect had worked there – 6:04 PM
• AP Poll: Congress’ approval hits high point – 5:35 PM
• Katrina claims stagger corps – 4:22 PM
• National Guard tapped for Iraq tour – 3:04 PM
• Edwards scared of ‘rabid Republican’ neighbor – 2:00 PM
• Add USATODAY.com RSS feeds Add USATODAY.com RSS feeds
NORAD had drills of jets as weapons
By Steven Komarow and Tom Squitieri, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.
One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center. In another exercise, jets performed a mock shootdown over the Atlantic Ocean of a jet supposedly laden with chemical poisons headed toward a target in the United States. In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon — but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic, NORAD and Defense officials say.
NORAD, in a written statement, confirmed that such hijacking exercises occurred. It said the scenarios outlined were regional drills, not regularly scheduled continent-wide exercises.
“Numerous types of civilian and military aircraft were used as mock hijacked aircraft,” the statement said. “These exercises tested track detection and identification; scramble and interception; hijack procedures; internal and external agency coordination and operational security and communications security procedures.”
A White House spokesman said Sunday that the Bush administration was not aware of the NORAD exercises. But the exercises using real aircraft show that at least one part of the government thought the possibility of such attacks, though unlikely, merited scrutiny.
On April 8, the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks heard testimony from national security adviser Condoleezza Rice that the White House didn’t anticipate hijacked planes being used as weapons.
On April 12, a watchdog group, the Project on Government Oversight, released a copy of an e-mail written by a former NORAD official referring to the proposed exercise targeting the Pentagon. The e-mail said the simulation was not held because the Pentagon considered it “too unrealistic.”
These are not my publications and thee are several more. Have you ever seen any video of the 3rd plane going through the pentagon? You will never. The so-called hole in the pentagon was too small for a boeing 747 to pass through. Witnesses in Pennyslyvania mostly confirmed that the fourth plane appeared to have been hit by a missile, certainly disintegrated in air before hitting the ground. The media told us hijackers brought it down from the air. How was Mohammed Atta’s passport found intact on ground zero amid all the rubble? How convinient. When 7/7 occurred in the UK in July 2005, amid all the mangled wreckage of train hardware, the so-called ring leader driving licence was found intact. Do you know that on both occasions, each head of state two days into their so-called terrorist attacks, enacted National Patriot Acts? What a coincidence?
Daniel read about former Jesuit Alberto Rivera and study the works of Eric Phelps and the you will understand how Islam was formed…….I cannot say more. If you are a sincere christian and believe Jesus is coming soon, then open your mind and allow the Holy Spirit to do the rest. You see, Satan rule this earth. However, he rules through scorcery, occultism, magic, spiritism through human beings. Most presients and world leaders a high ranking freemason who are only loyal to their brotherhood not their nations. The bible teaches us that past kingdom/empires have been ruled by politcal/religious leaders starting from the pharaohs of Egypt. The final and current is no different being governed from Rome The pope is a religious head as well as a political figure… the book of Revelation explains this beast power and how we are to proclaim the 3 Angels Messages.
We have all been bio-engineered over centuries to think within a box. Any new or radical thinking is seen as freaky. William Cooper predicted 911 a year before it happened. Why do you think US Marshalls killed him in front of his house? He knew too much, daniel. We shall all be persecuted, tried, and even killed for the sake of the everlasting gospel.
God help all of us. Amen.
Radical Adventism — the kind that says “only people who believe like me can be right” — is just as evil as Radical Islam. Jesus truly loves Muslims just as much as He loves Adventists. He longs for us to feel the same about our Muslim brothers and sisters. I believe all true Adventist followers of Jesus will truly love any sincere Muslim believers in God (that name is translated Allah in Arabic) that we encounter. And believe me, if you love someone, you will long to see the world through their eyes. Now, you want to talk about truth? All Biblical Truth has to do with relationships. All Biblical Truth is about relationships, our relationship with God, our relationsihps with each other (Muslims too—God is no respector of persons), our relationship with nature (animals, nature, our environment). The emphasis is primarily on our relationships with God and each other. Every commandment, every teaching, ever ritual, every book, chapter and verse is essentially, primarily and ultimately about relationships (if not taken out of context with a western behavioral focus). Period. So… we can’t be picky about behaviors, rituals, traditions, practices that we have come to see as “sacred” when they are not… at the expense of relationships, which God holds as most sacred. Until we love Muslim people as we love ourselves, we have no business dissing them, their beliefs, their practices, their books, their dress, their customs, their culture. May God have mercy on us and find a way to break through our self-centeredness and self-righteousness, or we will not reflect His character of loves and acceptance, and when the great day of reckoning comes, we will hear him say: “I’m sorry, but I don’t know you. You are not one of my disciples.” Loving God has more to do with how you treat others than what you eat or don’t eat, wear or don’t wear, read or don’t read, or how you pray, or fast… Bottom line, he who does not love his brother has the greatest sin. And that makes what I have written here… a call for repentance and humility, a call for us to be reconverted in our hearts. Let’s pray: “Change my heart, O God…”
SDA said they believe in ALLAH but they rejected what ALLAH said..how could a man enter to the kingdom of GOD if they are not pray 5x a day..A muslim bow to ALLAH 41X a day..
To alen from the Opera software company in Warsaw, Poland, Seventh-day Adventists as a whole do NOT believe in Allah. We believe in the true God, and his Son that was sent to save us from our sins – Jesus Christ.
I’m rather ashamed that I only found out about AMR today, with great shock and apprehension. When Paul did whatever he did to reach everyone with the Word, his message was simple and consistent; that of Christ and Him crucified. The very foundation of Christianity is Jesus Christ, and any slight attempt at diminishing His worth in Christianity presents an insoluble paradox. Christ sustains His own church, we do not need to deny Him or repackage Him to convince other religions. Remember, our obligation is to tell people about Christ, not convert them (of course, we delight in baptising them that believe). Arguing about Quran/Bible with people who already know about Christ (but rejects Him anyway) is futile and terrible waste of time; that is not the Christian calling. There are several millions who have not yet heard about Christ; and it’s for such that we must have greater concern.
Yes, it may be a good strategy to “know your enemy”, but I think we can only go so far. We cant be reading (studying) every baal-inspired literature out there to understand the view-point of our audience. That strategy is particularly flawed when we consider hinduism- or buddhism-like religions because one may end up transformed (in a bad way) just by reading the literature.
The children of Israel were told by God to totally reject all the other gods (this upset the other religions of the time), and religious prostitution is an abomination. Unfortunately (or fortunately) there is only one true God, and only one true way of worshipping; and that’s the Christian way…sorry folks, but that’s the way it is…it is what it is. I urge @FM and her husband to choose this day whom they will serve, because they cant serve two masters. If Jesus be Lord God, then serve Him, otherwise choose ye another god among the gods, which are no gods, but the work of man’s hands…but as for us Christians, we will worship the Father through Jesus Christ…the only way, the right way!
Dear all
I am an SDA who has had some very close friendships with Muslims throughout my life. I have enjoyed reading the above debate and have been somewhat involved with AMR in the past. In short:
I believe the origin of the system (!) of Islam is of the enemy, just as the Catholic origin and that the two are indeed linked behind the scenes.
However, this is not to say all those within these systems are lost!
God winks at the time of ignorance and we are judged according to the light we have been given and the measure we use will be used on us.
Let me be clear: no one will be saved without the blood of Jesus Christ. But He will choose to stand up for whom He will in court. And we know that we may be very surprised at some of the people that He chooses as His own! And so will these people!! They ask: Lord, when did we feed you?? Note their surprise!!
Note also that sister White very much affirms that God has had his messengers throughout the ages also outside of Christianity and Judaism and that we are judged according to the light we are given. This of course fits in nicely with Paul’s letter to the Romans.
You ask: then what is the point of spreading the gospel at all?
To make known God’s true character of love and to vindicate His name against the charges of the enemy! To save souls that could not be inspired by the (partially or fully) false teachings and image of God as taught them by their traditional religions.
I do not pretend to know the theological intricacies of the Adventist-Muslim debate and I do see the potential for new world order aka one world religion movement here. but I also note Paul’s advice: A Jew to Jews and a Greek to Greeks.
Let’s not be ruled by fear: search all things and hold fast to that which is good. If the Quran can be used a tool to win over Muslims, then let us use it wisely.
Here’s to the “unfamiliar god” approach!
God bless
Hi all, i have read all the above comments and i must admit that they are eye openers, especially to someone like me who is badly equiped to witness to our muslim friends. But this also leaves me a bit confused. The big question is, when all is said and done, how do i reach my muslim friends? What should i be wary of, what works?. God bless
hi brothers,
trying to lead people from different religion to our faith is not something easy, especially to our moslem friends as they’ve built their faith by fanatism, but , by telling that their bible is,as if, so true, and pretending that we believe in the same God can be so dangerous and misleading or even cheating. Jesus never pretending, so why must we? even Paul when he tried to reach the greeks and non jews, he never covered his faith.. people may have an impression that AMR could be a trap for muslim and this is not good. SDA should not lose courage to show the light. tell our muslim friends ( in a nice, friendly and good relationship) that Jesus Christ is the Lord, and that our doctrines is true and different from theirs, let they search themselves in their holy books. do not conceal the truth.