“Behold Your God” by Fred Wright (1979)
F
I first heard about this author and book from a fake missionary in Brunei in 2005, but was not proffered the book. In 2006, while staying in India, i was told to read the book by the lady of the house where i was staying, so, to please her, i did decide to read the book.
This book has many quotes from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy (Ellen White’s writings), and has a very attractive tone, but with a fatal conclusion — that God does not destroy. How anyone can read their Bibles or SOP and come to this conclusion is beyond me, but like i say, it sounds attractive to itching ears, ears which don’t want to hear that there will be a judge we have to meet at the last day to whom we must answer for all the deeds in this life, and who has power to “destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matt. 10:28)
Fred Wright is deceased now, but he formed a church organization claiming about 2,000 members. He claimed to be the “4th Angel’s Messenger”, similar to the way in which Mrs. White was the “3rd Angel’s Messenger”. Just this equating himself with someone who was inspired of God should give a serious pause to anyone considering whether this man is true or false.
So what is the main theme of the book? — that God does not kill. Beings who choose to rebel against God just put themselves outside of the “lifeforce” of love that is God, and they destroy themselves.
Starting in the preface to the book, we see a sentence that gives cause for pause: “He (Jesus) loved the Romans as much as he loved the Jews, neither was it his way to use force to accomplish any desired objective.” There are many places in the Bible showing that God specially chose and loved the Israelites, and did not love some other nations, even destroying them, as written in many places such as Isaiah 43:3-4 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.” If he loved Israel the same as the other nations, what was the whole point of separating them out from Egypt, driving out the nations from Canaan, bringing them back again from Babylon and Assyria etc.?
p.13 (Regarding Satan) “he worked at deceiving them into believing that God was a liar and destroyer”. This is just speculation on Mr. Wright’s part. We know from the 1858 Great Controversy that “Satan was insinuating against the government of God, ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit to the authority of Jesus.” There is nothing about him trying to show God as a “destroyer”.
p.15 Lucifer made progress “….until he became the brightest of all the creatures.” Pure speculation.
p.23 “… those who have made the fatal mistake will die, not because God will strike them down, but because they have placed themselves where life is impossible.” This is the heart of the false doctrine of this book. But what does inspired word say? Isaiah 14:30 “And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant. ” Some may say, “Oh, that is the Old Testament God”. OK, Revelation 2:23 “And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.” The 1858 Great Controversy says regarding the final destruction of the wicked: “But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and the mighty men, and the noble, and poor and miserable men, are all consumed together”
p.28 “The real truth is that every one of the angels was affected at least in part by the delusions of the great enemy.” But the 1858gc says: “Satan and his affected ones, who were striving to reform the government of God, wished to look into his unsearchable wisdom to ascertain his purpose in exalting Jesus, and endowing him with such unlimited power and command.” Were ALL the angels driven out? – of course not. Again, this is just pure speculation, having no basis in inspired fact.
p.33 says something about “….salvation they (angels) had gained”!!!
p.42 “never to destroy” Genesis 6:13 “And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.” As noted above, this is the central theme to this book, and it is clearly, without a doubt, totally against the Bible and SOP. This point about the flood will be taken up again later in the book.
p.49 “…God absolutely nothing after the fall that he did not do before…” Now i must admit, this one had me thinking, and thinking for a while. It does have a ring of truth to it, as we know that God never changes. But no, it is very clear that God DOES do new things, to direct things to the best good of everyone involved, while at the same time, giving everyone involved freedom to choose what they want to do. Saying that God does nothing new is basically saying the God is just a rock, sitting there, doing nothing. Isaiah 43:19 “Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.”
p.52 “….Wherever we find ourselves seeing the kingdom of God and the kingdoms of men to be the same in any respect, we can know that we have strayed from a true knowledge of God’s realm.” Here Mr. Wright is anticipating someone asking “what about the death penalty”, and is trying to head it off. This is very false, as it is God who sets up kingdoms and takes them down again. Daniel 5:18 “O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour: ” God also told his people Israel to do capital punishment for certain grievous sins. Actually, the truth of the matter is, is that the closer earthly kingdoms resemble the heavenly, the more they are blessed by God, and the better and higher exalted they become. Of course the reverse holds true too!
p.56 “….it is not possible for Him to behave in any other way”. (thus implying that God cannot break his own law about killing). Is it good for humans to put limits on God?
p.58 “To recognize that God never destroyed before there was sin, and to accept the idea that He does destroy after its emergence, is to believe that He has changed.” This is false logic. Using the same logic, we could say that since Jesus was never on a cross before sin, he was never on a cross after sin appeared either.
p.59 “Therefore in God’s kingdom, no force is ever employed to bring about allegiance to Him or to put down rebellion.” Exactly 50% true, and 50% false. Yes, God does not employ force to bring about allegiance to Him, but he DOES use force to put down rebellion. 1858gc “But the good and true angels prevailed, and Satan, with his followers, was driven from heaven.”
p.62 “The sinner will die. The heaven and earth will be destroyed and the entire universe will be rendered clean from the stain of sin. But it will not be God Who wields the scourge of destruction to effect this….only when they reject his saving effort, will he finally leave them to perish.” Mr. Wright knows that the wicked will die, and now is starting to weave his strange theology to support his position that God doesn’t punish them to death, but just removes his presence from them, and they naturally die of themselves. He is just shunting the supposed “badness” of punishing from God to nature!
p.63 in talking about earthly governments — “No crime is considered worse than treason – disloyalty to the state. But Jesus came to deliver men from all this….” But the 1858gc says regarding Satan’s rebellion: “It was the highest sin to rebel against the order and will of God”. And then God “summoned” (a forceful word!) all the angels to appear before him, and then decided: “Satan should be expelled from heaven”.
p.66 ….”He cannot punish those who do not do what He said they could do, namely, choose another master if they wished.” Again, is telling God what he can and cannot do the prerogative of created beings?
p.69 … (governments) formulate a list of punishments which they then administer. But these things are not true of God’s laws.
p.72 “He does not pay wages in the currency of death.” A large portion of Leviticus is all about what the punishments should be for those who break God’s law. Especially Leviticus 20, which specifies the death penalty for various sins is instructive of the character of God. Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
p.79 about Jesus: “He would take upon himself, not that which God would administer to the sinner, but that which the sinner had brought upon himself”. 1858gc “He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon”….”Jesus told them that he would stand between the wrath of his Father and guilty man,…” In the inspired words we see that Jesus didn’t just take what “the sinner had brought upon himself”, but he took “the sentence of death”, and stood “between the wrath of his Father and guilty man”.
p.91 “Satan would later develop the teaching that it is God who destroys.” Mr. Wright is attributing God’s acts to Satan, one of the signs of the end times (putting good for evil and evil for good).
p.128 “When God destroys there is no personal administration of punishment”. In effect, Mr. Wright is saying that the sinner self-destructs.
p.135 “The Old Testament is not the place to begin searching out the character of God.” !!!!! What about the New Testament then Mr. Wright? – that is where we have the most terrible warning even given to mankind, found in the 3rd Angel’s message of Revelation 14:9-12.
p.142– Basically since Christ didn’t destroy, and since he and the Father only do the same things, then the Father doesn’t destroy either. Using the same logic — Since the Father didn’t die on the cross, then Jesus didn’t die on the cross either. Rubbish.
p.144 Those who believe God DOES destroy are “white-haired traditionalists”. Well, if you can’t convince them with the truth, do the time-honored Satanic tactic of painting those with different views an ugly color.
p.145 In regards to Jesus’ life: “Such a study will fail to bring to light a single act of destruction or the administration of any punishment.” I remember stories about a fig-tree and driving sellers out of the temple….. But the bigger problem with this statement is that it doesn’t take into account at all Jesus’ various ministries. I cannot find where Jesus physically killed any animal himself, yet he instituted the whole sacrificial system thousands of years earlier. Just because he didn’t do something at one time, that doesn’t mean that he never ever does that thing. Because he never led an angelic host while on earth, does that mean he never did before coming to earth? Because he didn’t make any stars while on earth, does that mean he never made any stars? etc.
p.161 “In human minds there is a distinction between lawful and unlawful killing”. Praise God they still do! You will also find in the Bible that God makes a distinction too, even having Israel set up cities of refuge to protect those who killed accidentally, and of course commanding them to kill those who had broken the law in certain cases.
p.259-290 There is a convoluted explanation that the flood was caused not by God directly causing it, but by Christ leaving the world, so the sun and moon went out and let down the water canopy.
p.393 (in the 7plagues) “God will not even be there” So Satan brings the 7 Plagues on himself, or it just happens “naturally”? Even you, Mr. Wright, acknowledge here that nature under God’s willful lack of control is responsible for these calamities, so you are just repositioning the “badness” for the destruction from the Creator to the created. But inspired word says that God does execute judgment. 1858gc “Said the angel, It will be more tolerable for the heathen and for papists in the day of the execution of God’s judgment than for such men.”….”The inhabitants of earth had suffered the wrath of God in the seven last plagues.” Revelation 15:6 “And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.” Notice that there is ACTIVE work by the angels to carry out the 7 last plagues.
p.410 The gist of the final destruction of the world explanation is that Jesus will withdraw himself from the sun and it will explode. He also comments that he does not know why there are varying times for the wicked burning. So why does Jesus allow the sun to explode? He made the sun didn’t he? By allowing the sun to explode when he could prevent it from happening is almost the same as causing it, yet in a kind of under-handed manner. The 1858gc explains clearly why there are varying times for the wicked to burn: “Jesus, in union with the saints, meted out to the wicked the portion they must suffer, according to their works; and it was written in the book of death, and set off against their names. Satan and his angels were also judged by Jesus and the saints. Satan’s punishment was to be far greater than that of those whom he had deceived.” That sounds plenty fair to me, and i’m glad that we will all know the reasons they must be punished, and know that God is the one doing the punishment, rather than something in nature that has somehow gone out of his control, and also that Satan is not the one controlling the punishment, because for sure he would not punish fairly. Who would YOU want to punish your mother if she does not make it to heaven? – God, or nature, or Satan? Mr. Wright gives us the latter two options, but i will stay by the inspired word truth of God being in control, the God who is not willing that any should perish, but that gave up his only begotten Son to die for us wretched pieces of dirt 🙂
The sum of the matter is, is that God DOES punish, and God DOES destroy, and God DOES kill. It is very real, and this power to destroy even the soul in hell is given as the dividing-line-reason why we should NOT fear man, but fear God instead. To ascribe to “natural” or to Satan himself the attributes of God, that is, the prerogative to destroy the wicked, is to put Satan or nature in the place of God, which is very, very dangerous.
this is truth brother…. so many are being taken by every wind of doctrine…
The man of the house where i am staying could have had lots of money from one man if he had listened to/published this error. Praise God he had courage to say “no”!
The theme of the book is perfectly on target “God does not kill.” Our characters will grow no higher than our conception of who God is. Listen to this stupid logic; If God kills and we are suppose to be like Him therefore we are allowed to kill and further more who are we to question what the Roman Catholic Church did in the past. If we dismiss our only means of salvation where with can we be saved. When the message comes our way let us be like the Bereans and research the truth with an open mind and not one that is closed because of previous teachings. Read these and let me know what are your thoughts. If you don’t believe SOP you wont believe.
Satan is the great enemy of God and man. He transforms himself through his agents into angels of light. In the Scriptures he is called a destroyer, an accuser of the brethren, a deceiver, a liar, a tormentor, and a murderer. 5T 137.4
The purity and holiness of Christ, the spotless righteousness of Him who did no sin, was a perpetual reproach upon all sin in a world of sensuality and sin. In His life the light of truth was flashed amid the moral darkness with which Satan had enshrouded the world. Christ exposed Satan’s falsehoods and deceiving character, and in many hearts destroyed his corrupting influence. It was this that stirred Satan with such intense hatred. With his hosts of fallen beings he determined to urge the warfare most vigorously; for there stood in the world One who was a perfect representative of the Father, One whose character and practices refuted Satan’s misrepresentation of God. Satan had charged upon God the attribute he himself possessed. Now in Christ he saw God revealed in His true character–a compassionate, merciful Father, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to Him in repentance, and have eternal life. 1SM 254.3
To the last God permits Satan to reveal his character as a liar, an accuser, and a murderer. 13MR 330
The inhabitants of worlds unfallen could view in this case the attributes of Satan and the character of God. The law of God is a transcript of his character. The rebel leader was in opposition to the law of God, and revealed the fact that his principles were those that actuated one who is lawless, disobedient, unholy, an accuser, a liar, and a murderer. ST, April 23, 1896 par. 4
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ’s brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. DA 761.2
The holy angels were horror-stricken that one who had been of their number could fall so far as to be capable of such cruelty. Every sentiment of sympathy or pity which they had ever felt for Satan in his exile, was quenched in their hearts. That his envy should be exercised in such a revenge upon an innocent person was enough to strip him of his assumed robe of celestial light, and to reveal the hideous deformity beneath; but to manifest such malignity toward the divine Son of God, who had, with unprecedented self-denial, and love for the creatures formed in His image, come from heaven and assumed their fallen nature, was such a heinous crime against Heaven that it caused the angels to shudder with horror, and severed forever the last tie of sympathy existing between Satan and the heavenly world (3SP 183, 184). 5BC 1149.10
NOTE: All sympathized with him [Lucifer] but other sympathized with him to the extent of joining him in his rebellion against the government of God. The following quotation highlights the sympathizers who joined him in rebellion.
Though the angels had a knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ, though they were happy in the glorious service which they did for the King of heaven, yet, through his crooked representations of Christ and the Father, the evil one deceived a great company of angels, drew them into sympathy with himself, and associated them with himself in rebellion. Satan and his sympathizers became the avowed antagonists of God, established their own infernal empire, and set up a standard of rebellion against the God of heaven. RH, October 22, 1895 par. 1
NOTE: The creation of this sympathy for himself in the heavenly beings is what he [F T Wright] is referring to when he uses the statement, “…every one of the angels was affected at least in part…”
Pray about everything.
sedale, if you wish to believe Fred Wright over the Bible, you have the freedom to do that. But God says “I will kill”.
Daniel, please explain to me how God kills.
If you believe in SOP call Pathway Publishers at 479-754-3001 and order “We Must Know Him Aright”, then answer my question.
sedale, please read the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. I’ve shown at least one way God kills in the above post, but you choose not to believe.
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Your commanding tone about answering your “question”, also reveals what spirit you are of – of he who was a murderer from the beginning. Please repent, and follow our dear Saviour – Jesus Christ.
When Jesus bore our sins on the cross, and He died the same way that every sinner will die, God related to Jesus the exact same way that He will relate to every sinner. Did God kill Jesus or did God withdraw and let sin kill Him? Jesus Himself said, “My God, My God, why are you forsaking me?” NOT, “My God, My God, Why are you killing me?” God withdrew his life-sustaining presence, and sin killed Jesus. God is the source of life to the universe, we cannot live without Him.
The wages of sin is death. NOT The wages of God for sinning is death. God doesn’t need to kill us, sin will do the job just fine.
Satan is called “The Destroyer.” If God also destroyed, Satan would be called “A Destroyer” NOT “The Destroyer.”
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Daniel, do you believe the SDA view of the state of the dead? (this is related to the question of God’s character)
If so, how did you arrive at that conclusion, when most of the professed Christians in the world believe that Hell burns for eternity?
It would be helpful if you would contemplate the statements I made in my last post, instead of going immediately into combat mode. What would show that you had at least tried to understand the statements made, would be to try to refute what I had said if you don’t agree with them – quoting the scripture that you did, did not refute the statements that I made. Anyone can quote scriptures; obviously we are reading the same Bible, and coming to two different conclusions; it would be helpful to one or both of us to understand why. If you have faith in the SOP, you might read her article on how to settle a controverted point. That should have been required reading to start with; arguing and name-calling won’t get any of us closer to the truth – those tactics also greive away the Holy Spirit.
Mel, i’m the one who wrote this book review, and have already shown very clearly where this book is teaching false doctrine. Why not believe what God has told us in the Bible and SOP and reject what does not agree with that body of evidence?
Mel, one extreme doesn’t justify another. Let’s not swing from eternal torment to no punishment at all. And just because Dan is a little combative doesn’t mean his reasoning is awry.
Sedale, God kills in many ways. He zapped Uzza with some kind of lightning. He swallowed Korah in an earthquack. He killed Egypt’s firstborn by the death angel (loyal; not fallen). Then he drowned their armies in the Red Sea. I could go on, but it is unsavory business.
While we should not dwell inordinately on God’s wrath, neither should we deny it. Why? Because souls will be lost if we do (on both counts).
It is quite a difficult question to settle. That God has the perfect right to kill or destroy because He is the Creator, just as the potter has the right to destroy a faulty pot on His wheel,is undeniable. Yetwe recoil from the dissonance of an active killing action of God, vs the Jesus we meet in the NT. Let us not be too severe with one another over this issue. I think the clearest fact of all is that indeed the wages of sin is death. There is death. Whether the withdrawing of God causes death, as aptly pointed out above, in the case of Jesus highly symbolic death, or whether He unleashes killing forces is a question we can ponder in eternity if we receive the forgiveness of our sins and receive the gift of life He has given. Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts… Grace and peace
Hi.
I’d like to read the book so as to give a more educated/enlightened perspective on this, but one thing I wish for you to know is that “he that is not against us of someone who is on our side”.
I believe Fred T. Wright IS on the side of truth (though he may differ with many on some aspects). He may be even more correct than we think!
Question: Can you kill an already dead person?
Answer: No
Question: Can you kill an already spiritually dead person?
Answer: (Again) No.
So, when God removes the breath of life from a dead person, why must we call it “murder”? It IS one of the “strange acts of God” (Isa 28:21)
God bless you as you continue to work toward vindicating the Justice and Mercy of His holy name!
Fred Wright taught heresies about God, and called people away from God’s remnant church – the Seventh-day Adventist church, and set up his own church which i know at one time had around 2,000 members. I’m upset at Wright because i know at least 2 friends in India who followed him right out of God’s true church, and one has since died and the other wants nothing to do with the SDA church. So sad. This is where deception always leads – to eternal death.
.I am browsing here only because Fred Wright was my uncle.I didn’t know him and even though I read the book as a teenager I made little sense of it and I’m not making much sense of this debate either. I do know he was sincere, I don’t want any part of the debate over whether he was right or wrong. Could someone tell me what SOG stands for so I can make a little more sense of it?
Hello Marie, I don’t see any references to SOG in any of these posts. Perhaps you are referring to “SOP”? SOP stands for “Spirit of Prophecy”, and refers to the writings of Ellen White. I believe God inspired her, just as he inspired the Bible writers, so we should take her writings as the words of God, subject to the Bible which is the great standard to test all in the last days.
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The debate revolves around your uncle’s teaching that “God does not kill”. I believe that it is a very dangerous doctrine, and am trying to warn people not to fall into that trap.
Thanks Daniel it was SOP that I was wondering about and Im not sure why I typed or read it wrong.
Someone asked to tell them HOW God kills. This I will endeaver to do. Just as father takes responsibility for his young son, this is what our Father does for us. Since He is the creator and everything exists because He created everything and everyone, He takes responsibility for what He doesn’t prevent. That is the reason He can say, I did it. I kill. As an example, read 1 Chron10:4. “Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.” He killed himself. God could have prevented that, but He takes responsibility for what He allowed to happen. Now read the 13th & 14th verse. “So saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it: And enquired not of the Lord: therefore HE [God] SLEW HIM, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” He took the blame. Speaking of the end time: “Terrible plagues are visiting our world, in famines, in floods, in calamities by sea and land, in earthquakes in divers places. And because of men’s wickedness the Lord does not restrain the destroyig power.” RH 420. Does God send the plagues? He says He does, but He only takes the blame for what He could have prevented. The Bible is its own interpreter. It is written in Code—codified love, and only by the aid of the Holy Spirit can a person change his eronious opinions about God. GC 492 “Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning of the characte of God.” “It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His charactrer is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness mercy, and truth.” COL 415 “God destroys no man” 5T 120. “God destroys no one. COL 82. God seeks to save—not to destroy.” COL 202. “He does not destroy.” 1 SM 118. God never changes, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He has always been a loving Father. “To SIN wherever found, God is a consuming fire. The presence of God consumes sin.” MB 62 In the END it be see that SIN is the cause of DEATH. “The sting of death is sin.” 1 Cor. 15:56. “The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.” DA 107. “By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is TO THEM a consuming fire. The GLORY of Him who is love will destroy them.” DA 764.
“By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. GC 37. “This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of HIs mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life…They receive the results of their own choice.” DA 764.
The book that was mentioned earlier entitles “We Must Know Him Aright” is a compilation of 99% SOP statements, attainable at: 580-983-2384. God bless every honest, open minded seeker for truth. My God is a Saviour, not a destroyer. I hope you will come to know Him.
“The sting of death is sin” 1 Corinthians 15:56.
What causes DEATH? SIN!!
In other words; The sting that cause his death, was a bee.
Living Bible puts it this way: “For sin—the sting that causes death—will be gone.”
Jack wrote: “Just as father takes responsibility for his young son, this is what our Father does for us. Since He is the creator and everything exists because He created everything and everyone, He takes responsibility for what He doesn’t prevent. That is the reason He can say, I did it. I kill”
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Does God take responsibility for sin? Sure, Jesus takes our sins upon himself when we repent and confess them, but ultimately, Satan will have to suffer the punishment for all the sins he’s ever caused to be committed. If he can transfer that responsibility to God, then he is off the hook as it were.
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The inspired words in the Bible and Ellen White’s writings show very clearly that God does kill sometimes. It is NOT just that he takes responsibilty for what he “didn’t prevent”. He actually CAUSES killing at times. The Bible quotes in the main post and in the comments above are too clear to need further explanation.
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God DOES KILL at times. Let’s not give a distorted view of God to others. Praise his Holy Name that he is LOVE, and at the same time a CONSUMING FIRE. Both attributes must be kept in view, or we will get a twisted view of God that leads down very dangerous roads. One dangerous road of the “God doesn’t kill” theory is that of lessening God’s justice, and thus supporting Satan’s assertion that God was unfair in kicking him out of heaven.
A book can be 100% Bible and Spirit of Prophecy statements, but may be 100% error if not done under the direction of the Holy Spirit. Human compilations must be looked at very carefully! For example, the Bible says that all who believe will be saved in one place, and in another place it says even the devil believes. So just compiling that little bit, we could say that even Satan will be saved!!! We must take all the inspired words as they are written to form doctrine and belief.
God does take the responsibility for the sins of man. He paid a fabulous price for them. Just a the father of a young son had to pay for the window the child broke. But that is what father’s do.
Satan does NOT have to suffer the penalty for the sins he has tempted everyome to do. The unsaved will suffer for their OWN sins. Satan will suffer for his own sins AND for the sins he had caused “God’s peole” to commit. GC 673.
There were many quotes written that positively stated that God does NOT destroy. How can you reason them away? No one can be a Savior and a Destroyer at the same time. “Satan’s power is wholly destructive; God’s power is constructive” “It is Satan’s constant effort to misrepresent the character of God. He causes them to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator. GC 569.
Yes, the Bible is full of statements that say God destroys, but we need to let the Bible interpret itself. For instance: “God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgression with A ROD. He will at last PERMIT the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy. 4BC 1171.
“This earth has almost reached the place where God will PERMIT THE DESTROYER to work his will upon it.” 7T141
“Thus saith the Lord…Behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.” Ex 4:23
“All who failed to heed the Lord’s directions would lose their firstborn by THE HAND OF THE DESTROYER.” pp 378.
“Satan is the destroyer.” 6 T 388.
“Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. SATAN IS THE DESTROYER; God is the restorer.” MH 113.
Like I said: You have to let the Bible and the SOP explain themselves.
Do you believe that the wicked will burn forever and ever? I know you don’t, but that is what the Bible says. Rev 14;11; Rev 19:3.
“There are erroneous doctrines also, as that of an eternally burning hell and the endless torment of gthe wicked, that, by giving exaggerated and distorted views of the character of God, have produced the same result upon sensitive minds.” 5t 444.
“No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin” SR 430
“It was Satan who originated the doctrine of eternal torment as a punishment of sin.” SR 176.
I know it is hard to change one’s mind, especially if he has believed one way all his life. Think how hard it would be for a Cathloic after worshiping Mary, and then was told that she is dead. They would raise up against it, just like you are doing. I have a set of SDA Bible Comentaries and there are many statements Adventist pioneers have made supporting the truth about God’s Character. Doesn’t it make sense that Satan wants to portray Him as a tirant? When He gave all heaven in the gift of His son to save us. Why wouldn’t a person rather believe the Bible when it says that God is love? God loved Satan from the time he created him and He still does. Because He does not change.
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.” Heb 13:8
“For I am the Lord. I change not.” Mal 3:6
How can our loving Father kill His own children? How can our loving Father give us laws against killing and then break His own laws? What kind of earthly father do the opposite from what he requires of his children?
Give it a chance. Don’t harden your heart like Pharoh did. God wouldn’t tell us to love our enemies and He kills His. Our God is consistant. It is by beholding that we become changed. If you behold an arbitrary, vindictive God, you will become like what you behold. God wants us to know Him, the way He really is, Not as the enemy of souls claims He is.
It is important that we see Christ’s true character, because:
“Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.” COL 69.
“In Christ is the tenderness of the shepherd, the affection of the parent, and the matchless grace of the compassionate Saviour. His blessings He presents in the most alluring terms. He is not content merely to announce these blessings; He presents them in the most attractive way, to excite a desire to possess them. So His servants are to present the riches of the glory of the unspeakable Gift. The wonderful love of Christ will melt and subdue hearts, when the mere reiteration of doctrines would accomplish nothing. ‘Comfort ye, comfort ye My people, saith your God.’ ‘O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, BEHOLD YOUR GOD! . . . He shall feed His flock like a shepherd: He shall gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His bosom.'” Isa. 40:1, 9-11.
This a picture of Jesus and Jesus is God and He is exactly like His Father:
“We have only one perfect photograph of God, and this is Jesus Christ.” 7BC 906.
Thanks for the opportunity to share God’s true character. I pray that the honest, open minded soul will know Him aright.
“We are here to become like God in character, and by a life of service to reveal Him to the world. In order to be co-workers with God, in order to become like Him and to reveal His character, we must KNOW HIM ARIGHT. We must know Him as He reveals Himself.” MH 409.
“But Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan not only bore the weight and punishment of his sins, but the sins of all the redeemed host had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of the souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan, and all the wicked host, were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, Amen!” (1858 Great Controversy)
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So we see that yes, Satan does suffer for the ruin of the souls which he had caused.
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Brother, You are sincerely deluded. Please read the whole Bible, and not just cherry-pick parts that support some fanciful interpretation. I’ve given many quotes in the post itself and in the comments too, showing that God DOES KILL. I never said he enjoys it, or that killing is his main attribute – it is not. Love overcomes all. At the same time, a focus on his “love” aspect alone paints a very bad image of God, one that will lead down the broad path to perdition.
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It is strange that around 100 years ago most preachers liked to preach about the suffering God will cause the lost in hell, thus trying to “scare” people into being good. Now the pendulum has swung far the other way, and people only hear the “love” of God. Actually, this teaching is more dangerous, because it puts everyone to sleep.
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“Peace and safety” will be what the popular ministers preach at the end time according to the 1858 Great Controversy book. They will teach that all will make it to heaven. This is where this teaching naturally leads, and is why i’m trying to point out its dangers to whoever will listen.
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God is love, and at the same time, Our God is a consuming fire. Let’s portray him in the balanced manner he wants.
We’re not talking about Peace and Safty here. We are talking about the misconception of God’s character. Satan has painted God as arbitrary and vengeful. I want you to know God. To know Hi is to love Him. How can anyone love a tyrant?
Those who want to hang on to “Tradition and Misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His gfovernment, and the principles of His dealings with sin.” GC 492
“It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. AT THIS TIME a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His CHARACTER IS TO BE MADE KNOWN. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.” C.O.L. 415.
“Those who wait for the Bridegroom’s coming are to say to the people, ‘BEHOLD YOUR GOD.’ The LAST rays of merciful light, the LAST MESSAGE OF MERCY to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.” C.O.L. 415.
Because we believe that it is not God Who does the destroying, does not say that we are teaching a peace and safety message. No way! In fact it is the opposite. It is sin that destroys. We need to get busy and put away our sins so that we will not be consumed by THEM.
You are right, God is a consuming fire. But He consumes SIN not the SINNER. “The law of self-serving is the law of self-destruction.” DA 624.
“If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are CHOOSING DEATH. TO SIN, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it [SIN], the presence of God which consumes SIN, MUST consume you.” MB 62
Why is that so hard to believe? God is a SAVIOUR. This is what He came to save us from.
Sinners who do not accept Christ’s death on their behalf will have to die their own death. BUT if Christ’s death was different from the death they choose to die—their own, it would have to be by the same means. Otherwise, it would not be fair or just.
Did God kill His Son? NO!!! He was slain by the sin of the world. So, if the wicked die by any other means than by sin, it would be unjust on God’s part. Since God did not kill Jesus, He can’t kill the wicked. They have to die exactly as Christ did—by their own sins that they refused to give to Christ, Who was willing to die in their place.
God is willing to consume all sin in us, if we let Him. “In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin.” DA 107. “The furnace is to purify, but not to consume [destroy].” pp 738
“EVERY DEFECT IN THE CHARACTER, unless it is overcome by the help of God’s Spirit, WILL BECOME A SURE MEANS OF DESTRUCTION.” 5 T 573. “Kill the thorns [sins] or they [sins] will kill you.” 5 T 53.
Let us noT sleep any longer. Christ is coming in a flaming cloud [EW 16]. His glory will penetrate every inch of this Earth. But like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who walked in the midst of the fire heated seven times hotter than it was wont to be heated, those who have put away every sin and defect in their character will not be touched by the consuming fire.
“So in the day of the coming of the Lord, smoke and flame will be powerless to harm the righteous. THOSE WHO ARE UNITED WITH THE LORD will escape unscathed.” UL 261 Why? Because only sin and those who have chosen to hang on to theirs are consumed by the brightness of His coming. This is the wages of SIN—DEATH.
“Like Israel of old the WICKED DESTROY THEMSELVES; they fall by THEIR INIQUITY. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the MANIFESTATOPM OF HIS GLORY is TO THEM a consuming fire.” GC 37
That comsuming fire is only His Glroy, and His glory is His character.
“What is this glory?—the character of God.”TM 499.
In that day He cannot hide His glory. He is coming to save the righteous. He has warned everyone and longs to save everyone, but he never uses force. Force is only found under Satan’s government. He wants willing obedience. We all recieve what we choose.
Jack writes: “Because we believe that it is not God Who does the destroying, does not say that we are teaching a peace and safety message.”
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God DOES the destroying sometimes. Here are 5 quotes from the Bible, God’s word, that say “I destroy”:
Genesis 7:4
Leviticus 23:30
Psalm 118:10
Jeremiah 51:20
Micah 5:14
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Of course there are MANY other places in the Bible showing that God DOES destroy, he DOES kill. Please read Revelation 19 again.
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Thankfully God DOES destroy both sin AND the sinner.
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Nahum 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
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There have been comments from two different names on this post from people associated with Pathway Publishers in Clarksville, Arkansas. According to one web site, they have printed “Behold your God” by Fred Wright. Jack, is it true you have printed this book?
It is true. But I have also put together and printed a compilation of SOP and Bible quotes. As I mentioned before, it is called “We Must Know Him Aright”.
You are 100% right. God does destroy. BUT the question is HOW!!! While there is hope for us, whether collectivly or individually, God keeps Satan a bay. Study the book of Job. Satan wanted to get at Job, but couldn’t. Then he started making charges against Job. So, God allowed, permitted Satan to torment him.
Satan can do nothing without God’s permission. While we are living up to all the light we know, God is holding His hand over us. But when we sin away our day of opportunity, we separate from God and choose death.
“If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are CHOOSING DEATH. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you.” MB 62.
That is not atbitrary. God cannot force you to stay under His protection. When you want to leave, He does not force you to stay. And when you leave, you are at the mercy of the emeny of souls. He gives you what you choose. That is His strange act. It is “letting go” knowing that you are lost.
God gives us freedon to choose what master we want. He doesn’t separate from us. We separated from Him.
“God does not separate from us, but we separate from Him.” 3MR 232.
No soul is ever finally deserted of God, guven up to his own ways, so long as there isany hope of his salvation.
God loves the sinner. How can you kill somebody you love? But as a loving parent they have to leave their children free to choose whom they want to follow, and reap the rusults.
“In His dealing with ancient Israel God has given us an illustration of the result of disobedience. Even as He punished the children of Israel, so He will punish all who cause His glory to be reproached. [HOW???]Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, even as Jerusalem, by her own course of action, was humiliated and brought low. Her people chose Barabbas, and GOD LEFT THEM TO THEIR CHOICE. They would not submit to God’s way, so HE PERMITTED them to have their own way, to carry out the purposes of their unsanctified hearts. RH, October 8, 1901
“Isreal had s purned the divine protection, and now she had no defense.” GC 29.
There is NO SOMETIMES with God!!! God is consistant. He never changes.
“I am the LORD, I change not.” Malachi 3:10.
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” Heb. 13:8.
“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” James 1:17.
God cannot change.
Yes, the Bible is full of quotes saying that God destroys. But we need to allow the Bible to explain itself.
Remember the the incident where the “The Lord sent Israel firey serpents”? [Nimbers 21:6.] “To punish them for their ingratitude, and complaining against God, the Lord PERMITTED fiery serpents to bit them… The Israelites, up to this time, had been preserved from these serpents in the wilderness, by a continual miracle; for the wilderness through which they traveled was infested with poisonous serpents.” 1 BC 1116.
P.S. I just read a comment someone wrote in about the other people’s comments on the results of the oil leak, and how it is God’s way of punishing us.
This is Satan’s misreprentation of God.
“Up to the time of Christ’s first advent, men worshiped cruel, despotic gods. Even the Jewish mind was reached through fear rather than love. Christ’s mission was to reveal to men that God is not a despot, but a Father, full of mercy and love for His children. He spoke of God by the endearing name of “Father.” ST, September 23, 1908.
I will now copy the comment which is what Satan has caused people think about God.
“They praise a God who has killed more of the human family than all earthly tyrants put together. This “God” who has many eminent titles to his name, calls we his creation “grasshoppers.” This “majestic” God is going to make a great name for himself killing grasshoppers? This God of “love” has NEVER resolved any problem with love and goodness, he has ALWAYS resorted to violence to resolve his problems. That is why the earth is filled with violence, his followers on earth his religious zealots come like God in peace, but their hands drip with the blood of billions, as religions history is shameful to read. Look at their comments here, they are gloating over the coming death of billions more at the hands of “their” God of love. They cannot see the staggering hypocrisy of their sadistic and twisted.”
This is NOT the God of heaven.
“It is Satan’s constant effort to misrepresent the character of God. He causes them to cherish false conception of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator.” GC 569.
Let it not be said of us, that we have fallen under Satan’s deceptions in regard to God’s character. If Satan is right, you might as well throw away the Spirit of Prophecy. Being a SDA we have to make a choice. I quoted many of EGW statements above and there are more.
Brother Jack, in your comment of June 10, you say “God does destroy. BUT the question is HOW!!”. When i read this, i was praising God that you are refuting the main charge of Fred Wright’s book. But then in the rest of that comment, and especially strong in the June 12 comment, you are very sure that God doesn’t “destroy”, but just allows the natural results of sin to do the “destroying”….
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Brother, understand, that God DOES destroy. He does the destroying sometimes, and at other times he allows the destroying.
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1SP: “God controls all these elements (fire in the earth etc.); they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be, his agents to blot out from the earth
very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram, they go down alive
into the pit. These are evidences of God’s power.”
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1ST 12-20-1877: “Satan, when tempting Eve to disobey God, said to her, “Ye shall not surely die.” Great men, worldly, honored, and wise men, repeat the same story. “Ye shall not surely die,” and that God’s threatenings are for the purpose of intimidating and will never be verified. You need not be alarmed, such an event as the world’s being destroyed by God who made it, and punishing the beings he has made will
never take place for this is not in accordance with science and philosophy. Be at peace, fear not, Noah is crazy, he is the wildest fanatic.”
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Brother, be very careful, for you are repeating almost the same words as those who disbelieved Noah.
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“And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army; for his camp is very great; for he is strong that executeth his word; for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?” “Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.” “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the
glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.”
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There is a reason God displays his awesome power sometimes – to check the wickedness in man. While it is true that the judgments of God were dwelt on too much in the past by many, and many listeners saw God as some kind of ogre who loves blood, the present day sees many more of the opposite stripe, saying God is only love, and doesn’t destroy at all. Both are wrong, and both make Satan happy.
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Your write: “But I have also put together and printed a compilation of SOP and Bible quotes.” And “I quoted many of EGW statements above and there are more.”
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Brother, please quote the ENTIRE Bible and SOP quotes on the subject, not just the ones that seem to support this idea. You know, it is possible to take just some parts of the Bible, and show conclusively that Satan will be saved too, but is that rightly dividing the Word of Truth?
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Yes, God DOES destroy, and yes, he does the destroying himself sometimes. Let’s worship and honor and praise the God who made heavens and earth and sea by the words from his mouth, and who one day will burn them all up with the breath of his mouth too.
I’m sorry you don’t understand the principles.
Like the fiery serpants, these things that are blamed on God are being held back by His loving hands, I.E. the four winds. He is trying to SAVE the people in this world. He is holding back what will destroy them. That is why He allowed His Son to come, to show His character, and live a holy life for them to imulate. But disasters being held in check and are only allowed to come in small doses to wake up the people on Earth. The trumpets are sounding to get ready, get ready. I am coming. I can’t wait much longer. I can’t hold these things back much longer. Why will you die?
“EZ 18:31, 32 “Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.”
God is pleading for His people to allow Him to save them.
AGAIN, you seemed to overlook the statements from the Bible that say GOD NEVER CHANGES. HE IS THE SME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER. There is no SOMETIMES, ever. God cannot be a Saviour and a destroyer. He is either one or the other. We all are free to chose which our God is. I am sorry you have refused to take the Eden Serpant’s lies about God like she did. I will just pray for you that your eyes will be opened and you will not harden your heart. The characer of God is the last message of mercy. “Those who wait for the Bridegroom’s coming are to say to the people, “Behold your God.” The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.” COL 415.
By beholding we become changed. By beholding what you think God is like, you will become like that. By beholding what I think God is like, I will be changed into what I see. What will the end results of each be like?
I sure don’t think heaven will be filled with bloody, vengeful saints.
Unless I am impressed to continue this discussion, you will hear no more from me. But I will continue to pray that the Holy Spirit can break through that barrier Satan has placed around you and you will be able to break free and walk in the light.
“I am sorry you have refused to take the Eden Serpant’s lies about God like she did.”
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I am VERY GLAD and thank God i have refused to take the Eden Serpent’s lies” 🙂
Revelation 19:11-16 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
“In His wisdom the Saviour teaches us to approach God with the confidence of a child. He instructs us to call Jehovah by the endearing name of “Father,” that we may not separate from Him in awe and coldness. Constantly He points us to the emblems of fatherly love, seeking to encourage faith and confidence in God. HE PLEADS WITH US TO HAVE A CORRECT IDEA OF THE FATHER. He throws back the accusation of the enemy,declaring, “Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear Him.” He would have the memorials of redeeming grace arrest our attention, that we may know that all the goodness, mercy, patience, forbearance, seen in Him [Christ], belong to God. ST, January 20, 1898 par. 6
Brother Jack I stand by you word you have presented 100%. But a word of caution, Sis E G White said that the truth cannot be had by argument. I believe that you have presented the word clearly and the Lord as accepted your efforts but it is time for you to allow individuals to accept what the devil has said or what God says. Satan knows fully well the character of God. He says, “If we keep souls deceived for a time, God’s mercy will be withdrawn, and He will give them up to our full control.” TM 475 Paul talks about reading the Old Testament with vail over our faces (2 Cor 3: 13, 14) which is done away in Christ, who perfectly manifested the Father. Jack, the message is clearly presented. I want to serve a God who is love, not sometimes. “Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some, in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others, and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.” {GC88 589.2}. This shows that Satan has two faces. The God that I serve has but one character and that is love. Let The Holy Spirit do His work.
Revelation 19:15-21 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; (18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. (19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Thanks Sedale, I needed that. I just keep hoping I could bread through the hard crust and get to his heart. I am still hoping, but I have said enough. Your right. God bless you and Daniel.
I read all the debate on the subject. I am pained to see so much unwillingness to accept the Scriptures as they are, while claiming to be special SDAs.
To see what God reveals in any subject, The scriptures should be approached with reverence and prayer, living behind all preconceived ideas and human interpretations.
I am very sorry to say but especially SDAs, while claiming the Scriptures, they (SDAs) do NOT BELIEVE, NO BIBLE AND NO S.O.P. They use it to cover-up their interpretation, and those which are not ready to study as the Bereans, believe their teaching, presuming they are correct. The owner of this “Behold Your God” by Fred Wright review, is very much in this condition and a pitiful spiritual condition. I advise to send me your contact, and I will send a material which will demonstrate that needs a RECONVERSION, to get a SPIRITUAL LIFE, from Laodicea condition, to get ointment for the eyes, and than, SPIRITUAL THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL DISCERNED, than will see what is no room for this sort of accusation toward God, that He DESTROY.
In the same time, I hope after you study all Bible and S.O.P. quotations, you have the strength to publish the conclusion.
I will offer not my interpretations, but Bible quotations and SPO quotations, which SDAs pretend they accept as being God’s voice. Yes, the writings of E.G. White are as inspired as the Bible Prophets, but most SDAs select only what fit to their benefit from Bible and from E G White writings, and they do not want to know those things do not fit to their mind and their desires. Or when they find things they do not like, sudden they say E.G. White is no more inspired… This is the common attitude among SDAs.
The following is the Only Message from God to SDA:
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
The Only Message is to Return where did fall, and be restored. Laodiceia has no message of preaching the gospel, because Laodicea is an Movement in Apostasy which God loves and desire to restore them to Himself. Till SDA get restored to the condition where they felled, their message is APOSTASY, mixed Truth and Error. God say they are blind. And the blind do not see that they are blind. Read the texts in Scriptures and see it. I do not say it but God.
This is the most loving message from God to a Movement in apostasy, called to be restored. Will you SDAs respond to it?
I pray you will accept this loving call before is not too late.
Doesn’t Graham Maxwell say somewhat the same thing as Fred Wright?
http://www.pineknoll.org/all-audio-resources
Yes saos, you are very correct. They come at it from different angles, but arrive at the same conclusion – that God does not destroy, thus implying that everyone will be saved.
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I see from your link that A. Graham Maxwell died November 29, 2010. I pray that he repented of his teachings before his probation closed. http://www.pineknoll.org/remembering
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Levi, the Seventh-day Adventist church is NOT in apostasy. If in apostasy, then she is part of Babylon that we must come out of. While she is steadily retreating back towards Egypt, she is still the only object upon earth on which God bestows his supreme regard. This is why we must sigh and cry for the abominations done within her if we would receive the seal of God in the forehead. Remember, God says that “As many as i love, i rebuke and chasten.”
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He rebukes and chastens which church?
Hi Daniel,
I’m not seeing where you’re coming from. Expand for me where the conclusion that God does not destroy implies that God will save everyone.
In the spirit of Graham Maxwell, some evidence would be in order…to be fair, of course.
Hello saos,
This conclusion seems self-evident…
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Every human will stand at the judgement seat of Christ. Everyone has to either be saved, or be destroyed.
It thought it was being saved or lost. There’s a difference to be made abundantly clear. You still didn’t present any evidence…
Perhaps my juxtaposing of “saved” and “be destroyed” was confusing. hmmm.
Maybe “taken to heaven/new earth to live forever” and “be destroyed” would be better?
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For evidence, “Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
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More evidence taken from chapter 41 of the 1858 Great Controversy by Ellen White (have you read that book?): “Satan rushes into the midst, and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and the mighty men, and the noble, and poor and miserable men, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering was there. Said the angel, The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.
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But Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan not only bore the weight and punishment of his sins, but the sins of all the redeemed host had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of the souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan, and all the wicked host, were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, Amen!”
Is it correct to say that the death that you speak of is the second death?
How do you reconcile then the difference in the execution of second death between Jesus and the unrepentant wicked if both were administered by the same God for the same sins in fact?
The mystery of the Word of God is only revealed to those who have an open mind and a willingness to admit that they may be wrong.
If a person would dig deep enough into the mine of truth, they will find the answers to what seems so complicated. I have written a small booklet that explains what destroys the wicked. The information is all taken from the Spirit of Prophecy and the Bible. Send me an email at Pathwaypub@yahoo.com and I will see that you get that imformation. Remember that the Bible and SOP do not contradict each other. It is only our preconceived ideas that make it complicated.
I highly recommend everyone interested in the truth to NOT write to Jack, as his posts on this topic show that he will try to lead you down the path of error. The Bible and Spirit of Prophecy are very clear on what destroys the wicked. Folks, we are too close to Christ’s coming to be chasing fanciful doctrines that suit our itching ears.
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Instead, stay close to Jesus!
Given my own lengthy discussion on this topic in an SDA Forum thread entitledWhy did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?, and given Daniel Winters Biblical and SOP answers here, I fully agree with Daniel’s view here. That other discussion also enters into details of how God kills, as exegetically revealed in the Bible, as well as bringing out the Justice and Love of God in all of these actions. You all can see those details, and much more there. I, “NJK Project”, joined in on page 14, to the present. (I don’t mind discussing this here, but would mind having to repeat what I stated there already, which was quite time consuming.)
Thank you for the link, NJK. I’ve spent a few minutes browsing the thread there, and see that a certain “Tom”, who believes God does not destroy, takes up most of the writing space. As is typical of those holding error, he refuses to accept the inspired words that plainly reveal his position to be contrary to God’s revealed will.
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You know, i really wonder if quite a bit of this error doesn’t come from the misunderstanding of Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill.” Deuteronomy 5:17 has “Thou shalt not slee.(slay)”, and most translations have something like “You shall not murder”. The defining answer is given by Jesus in Matthew 19:18 “…Jesus replied, “Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,”
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“Do not murder” is different from “Do not kill”. Using capital punishment is not murder at all.
Indeed Daniel, when I got to presented for the umteenth time incontrovertible exegetical evidence, “Tom” suddenly came forward with the argument that the prophets/Bible writers misunderstood God and thus wrote these accounts wrongly, and/or, in regards to direct “thus says the Lord” type of statements, something got lost in translation, as if God could not speak Hebrew!?? That is indeed the only way that this teaching is upheld, by making completely void the word of God.
I have come across people in that thread who did not understand the Biblical and rightly legal/civil truth that (judicious) killing is not murder, however most have come to abandon that stance. As I see it, the statement that “God does not kill”, is deliberately so made because if it was said that “God does not murder”, then the immediate and valid rebuttal would be, killing is not murder. So I see that the holder of that view realize/understand that judicious killing is not murder. They therefore try spuriously to focus on effectively claiming judicious killing is either evil and/or sinful, and thus is not the act of a a loving God. The fact is that God does these killing all in “just defence” of the righteous when the lawless actions of evil doers come to in some “clear and present” form tangibly threaten their life. The example of the Amorites is a classic example as God chose to make Israel slaves in Egypt for 400+ years rather than unjustly/without vital cause dispossess that nation in favor of Israel. (Gen 15:16b)