The following is an exact copy of comments made over on my earlysda.com forum regarding Jeff Pippenger. Note that “webmaster” = myself.
Name: ep Date: Oct 3, 2006
listen to jeff pippenger sermons online at http://www.theseventhunders.com/gallery/
Name: webmaster Date: Oct 4, 2006
I met Br. Jeff Pippenger in Holland and Germany. He has a few interesting discoveries in the prophecies leading up to 1844. Mostly tho, you can just read Uriah Smith’s book and get most of the same information.
When shown from Ellen White’s second vision that right after the sealing was completed the 7 Last Plagues were poured out, he said i was misapplying that. Sorry to say, it seems that when an inspired writing cuts across his theories, he doesn’t like it too much….
Name: mark Date: Nov 3, 2006
I don’t see any “sermons online” at this site.
Name: Anonymous Date: Oct 3, 2008
I know jeff pretty well, and he supports the biblical view that the 4 angels are going to hold the four winds of strife while probationary time is open for humanity. And that once the close of probation arrives, then and not before the seven plagues are poured out because the 4 angels do not hold the winds from this point on any longer. That´s number one.
And number two, it is also false what you say that Jeff is pretty much saying what Uriath Smith wrote in that book. I wonder why, if you don´t know, you speak as if you knew, and people may get a wrong idea about this good man. He is very logic, very inteligent, with a lot of common sense, and coutious about his conclusions. Jeff has been blessed by God with loads of new light, prophetic truths that concerns us in this present time. But at the same time he defends the forgotten prophetic truths in the Seventh-day adventism, the ones the pioneers held. And building upon that firm platform he advanced in new prophetic light. For example Daniel 11:40-45. The role of Islam in Bible prophecy with the Third woe, the seven churches, the seven thunders, the sealing time, revelation 17,18. Etc…. A lot of people are studying these truths, and are seeing a great blessing, this is the final message for adventism and the world.
Name: Anonymous 2 Date: April 24th
ITS interessting concerning EGW saying about the latter rain starting to fall that no one will say “I belong to Paul”, and “I belong to Kaifas” etc. The very people who endorse Pippenger clearly states we are depended on “his ideas” for salvation.
This doens’t fit with the quote I read.
When people are united the sprinkling will start, when people manifest the love of Christ. Not unified by fear but by love.
Name: Anonymous Date: April 24th
I agree.. when clear statements from egw doesn’t fit with the theory we are claimed to misread those quotes, but when they use unclear quotes to fit with the theory then they are reading them correctly. This isn’t fair.
Name: webmaster Date: April 25th
Anonymous of October 3, 2008 wrote: “And number two, it is also false what you say that Jeff is pretty much saying what Uriath Smith wrote in that book. I wonder why, if you don´t know, you speak as if you knew, and people may get a wrong idea about this good man.”
Sir, as i wrote in October 4, 2006 posting, i met the man in both Holland and Germany in summer 2006. I listened to several of his sermons. Basically he says the 7 trumpets are in the past. When i showed him the inspired word that the sealing of the 144,000 must be in the future, he got riled at me, and said i was taking it out of context. The problem is, IF the sealing of the 144,000 is future to where we are today, then the 5th trumpet CANNOT HAVE POSSIBLY SOUNDED YET.
My blood brother and i just spent over an hour studying Ezekiel 9 along with the Revelation 7, 8 and 9. It is clear that the trumpets happen AFTER the 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads.
Name: webmaster Date: May 7th
Anonymous of October 3 wrote “The role of Islam in Bible prophecy with the Third woe”. How can this be, when the first and second “woes” have not even occurred yet????
Stephen Dickie is promoting the idea that the Muslims were the first “woe” which cannot be right either. Why is it that us SDAs are trying to fit Islam into any of the “woes”?
Name: Sister in Christ Date: May 9th
Because Islam is a hot topic.
“And now, little children, abide in him, that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before him at his coming.” 1 John 2:28
Name: Anonymous Date: May 18th
In response to the webmaster and his following quote: “Stephen Dickie is promoting the idea that the Muslims were the first “woe” which cannot be right either. Why is it that us SDAs are trying to fit Islam into any of the “woes”?
What everyone has to understand is this: 1. The pioneer chart of 1843 which was a representation of ALL of the truth’s that were taught by our pioneers, portrayed Islam as the first and second woe! If you are faithful to inspiration, check out this quote:
“I have seen that the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed.” EW 74
We can see clearly, if we are willing, that the pioneers taught that the first and second woe were represented by Islam AND that sister White was shown that THAT chart was “directed by the hand of the Lord” and “that it should not be altered”. Friends the only mistake was the inclusion of the year zero. That was soon adjusted, but a disappointment was intended to try the people.
I also can provide you with the pioneers arguments that Islam was represented by the first and second woe and WHY!
THIS is just one reason as to why we “are trying to fit Islam into” the woes. Blessings
Name: webmaster Date: 13 days ago
Here’s high-res pictures of the 1843 and 1850 charts:
http://3elijahs.com/charts.htm
Yes, i fully believe the 1843 chart was led of God. It led them to prepare to meet their Master in 1843.
William Miller wrote some rules of Biblical interpretation. While not inspired, i believe them to be very sound rules. Let’s take a look at number 13:
http://www.earlysda.com/miller/william-miller-biography-2.html
“13. To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfillment of a prophecy: If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the true event; but if one word lacks a fulfillment, then you must look for another event, or wait its future development; for God takes care that history and prophecy shall agree, so that the true believing children of God may never be ashamed. Ps. 22:5; Isa. 45:17-19; 1 Pet. 2:6; Rev. 17:17; Acts 3:18.”
Notice the part i bolded especially.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Did the people of God in 1843 have any understanding at all of the “seal of God”? No. We know now that this refers to the sealing in the forehead of the 144,000 saints who will be alive when Jesus comes. These will be the ones who keep the Sabbath when all the world declares it void.
As of present, 2009, there is no one who has received either the seal of God, or the Mark of the Beast. That these two processes occur simultaneously is obvious, but if there is a question about this we could start a new thread on this topic.
Some other words that have not been fulfilled yet:
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Who sought death during the Mahometan invasions but could not find it?
Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Where on the chart is anything about the tails at all? Nothing.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Were 1/3 of all humans killed during the Mahometan wars? No.
Also on the 1843 chart, it shows Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But there is one little problem with that — There is no zero year date to throw the prophecy off!!! Take 508 and add 1335 and you will come to a year when nothing happened. How can it be said at the last of the explanation of the greatest time prophecies in the Bible “blessed is he who waits” and comes to the year when nothing happened?????
So these are a few reasons why i know that none of the woes have even started yet. Besides, common sense would tell any honest seeker, that if something so bad God calls a “woe”, is something that happened long ago that hardly two people can agree over, then God’s “woes” are pretty puny, and not to be feared. No, no, God’s woes will be awesome, and will captivate the attention of all the world like nothing else possibly could.
Let’s be ready ourselves, and help others prepare for what is going to come on the world like an “overwhelming surprise”.
Name: Anonymous brian palfrey Date: 7 days ago
i live in cwmbran south wales.i am a sda but came to listen by chance and find this man good.i love the way this man has studied.i wish i had read more in my life .and i believe in what jeff has said we has a church should go back to the pioneering days for his message alone has caused a stir with members in the church.and if my dear father had been alive today for he loved the Lord and was himself a scholar in his own right.i fell from Gods grace many times but this man has given Christ back to me in a big way.i fell and fell and jeff thanks for your message may God indeed grant an extension to your life and works .God be with all christians and those who dont know him ,listen to jeff you will then want Christ always and will indeed change your ways.God be with you jeff and your family.brian.if anyone wants to email me then this is my email…..yerflap@yahoo.co.uk
Name: webmaster Date: 6 days ago
I just went to Jeff Pippenger’s website, and looked a few minutes at his February 2009 newsletter – what a mishmash! And as i remember from before, there are tons of quotes seeming to back up his statements, while all the while ignoring the obvious statements in inspired words that directly refute such ideas.
He writes: “The “golden oil” which is the “communications which” God “sends us” comes through the “golden pipes” which for the disciples during Pentecost was the law and the prophets, for the Millerites were the Old and New Testaments, and for the 144,000 are the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. ”
Well, THAT is certainly a new interpretation that i’ve never heard anyone say before.
“The first work of the latter rain message is to awaken the sleeping virgins of Adventism; ”
This cannot be true. Please read chapter 32 “The Shaking” in the original Great Controversy book, and you will see that AFTER they are shaken, THEN the Latter Rain will be poured out.
Then he gives another original idea: “The progressive nature of the latter rain message is represented by the “Lion of the tribe of Judah” removing the seven seals from Gods word. ”
He even quotes basically what i showed him in his room at the Holland camp-meeting in 2006: “The sealing time is very short, and will soon be over. Now is the time, while the four angels are holding the four winds, to make our calling and election sure. Early Writings, 58.”
But while at the camp-meeting when i showed him this, and showed that at the minimum, the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets cannot have started yet, he got angry, and said i do not properly interpret this quote. But now i see he has a totally unique, unfounded, erroneous twist on this quote by writing:
“The sealing time begins when the four angels of Revelation seven restrain the four winds of strife, the sealing only lasts a short period of time before all of Gods people are sealed. In 2001, the United States and the United Nations together placed a restraint upon radical Islam, thus marking when the restraining of the four winds began; for the four winds are Islam, the “angry horse” of Bible prophecy.”
What Garbage! How can anyone listen to this poor, deluded man? How much longer will God’s remnant people be put to sleep with interpreters of the visions saying one day that nearly everything is in the past, and then the next day showing that it is talking about Islam or “progressive Latter Rain”?
I speak strongly, because i’m passionate about this subject. Really, how much longer will we Seventh-day Adventists not study our Bibles to see that the entire Bible especially has an immediate application for the 144,000???
I do not accept the interptation of Jeff Pippenger on prophecy, especially on Daniel 11: 40-45 the rule he used is repeat and enlarge, this rule is speculative and immaginary. That the reason he got it so wrong,he said that the Papacy in Daniel 11; 40-45 is the King of the north, and the King of the south is France,and it became communist Russia after ward. Written by R L South
The interpretation of Daniel 11;40-45 by Jeff Pippenger that in the time of the end the papacy is the king of the north,is build arround speculations,and conjecture. There is no historic evidence for his interpretation,but what this teaching as cause is controversy,that lead to division with in the SD.A. In London and as a result they went else,where to form their own church. This could not be the will of God. The interpretation given by Uriah Smith is more accurate and historically base. I have written an article on the Pippenger view, anyone want a copy they can email me for it. R South.
lets leave the hard ones to God all right the battle of amageddon must play a path in this whole thing and we must give it time to work its self out first is 1844 then 1998 then 2004 then its oboma whats next to much gessing, lets spend more time at the foot of the cross, let spent moor nigets in prayer and we will get more results….Dwight
R South, I’d like to see your paper on Pippenger, brother, but don’t see how to email you.
I just wish we as brothers in the Lord could discuss our differences while maintaining love for one another, you know, as Abraham said to Lot, Let there be no strife between us for we be brethren.
I enjoyed all of the comments here. I’m very interested in those last few verses of Daniel 11, and this is one of the most enlightening and helpful forums I’ve seen on the subject.
Let us have oil in our lamps, and watch and be ready!
I agree with brother Trainor. I am so glad someone has the guts to share this new old message with us and be willing to take the punches… I have long awaited answers to the last time dates in Daniel 12 and finally things are beginning to add up!
I watched Jeff Pippengers video on the seven thunders and I could not believe the scripture twisting he was doing. He was making the bible text fit his theory. When he got to Rev 22:10 and the angel tells John so seal not the book, his take on it was, was the unsealing of the seven thunders. First of all there is no command to unseal anything in that text. The subject is the book of Revelation, not the seven thunders. John was simply told not to seal the book. John may have been wandering if his book was to be sealed, and the answer came to him. Do not seal the book. And inspiration tells us that the book of Revelation was not sealed like Daniels was. Also when he read the part were John hears the seven thunders in Revelatin 10, he read right over the part were John was told not to write what the seven thunders said, and did not make any comment. This was a very important point that Jeff just seemed to miss. John did not write what the seven thunders said in his book. Johns book was not sealed, so if God wanted what the seven thunders uttered to be a secret, it could not be written in Johns book. Ellen Whites comments on the seven thunders makes it clear that what John heard was the disappointments that the Adventist went through in 1843 and 1844. She clearly says that the seven thunders had thier part in the first (1843) and second (1844) angels messages. And she even says they were events. But Jeff says of cours that they are messages that God gives us (Jeff) just before probation closes. Of course he sensationalizes it. But Ellen Whites comments are clear, the seven thunders pertain to the events of 1843-1844 and we should not try to make something more out of it. The seven thunders have been unsealed all right. But through the writings of Ellen White. They were events, not secret messages just before probation closes. And of cours Jeff would say that the messages are pointing us to his theories and suppositions. This man does teach a lot of truth, but it is mixed with some error. Thnks Bro E
Brothers and sisters in Christ thank you so much for the work you are doing. I have been reading your comments and I came to realise that there are still some people angering for truth in these LAST DAYS. Am sure of the capitals. Please brothers and Sisters it is very very critical when it comes to interpreting prophecies. Remember that everything is controlled by God. So don’t rush to conclude that somebody is right or wrong depending on your logic and the few statements you have to backup your decisions. WHAT I KNOW ABOUT THE WOES AND THE TRUMPHETS IS THAT THEY ARE NOT FUTURE. I am sorry to quote from the Great Controversy without showing the axact pages because I just bumbed into this site without preparation but I am pretty sure that since you are good readers and researchers you could have come across the statement of Sister Ellen White about THE THREE HUNDRED AND NINETY ONE YEARS ( an hour, a day, a month, and a year)Rev 9:15 WHICH ENDED IN 1840 BY THE FALL OF TURKEY (around 11th of August if I remember well – read and correct me if am wrong please).
THIS IS A CLEAR PROOF THAT THE FIFTH TRUMPTHET PERIOD CAME TO AN END IN 1840.
IF WE ARE TO FOLLOW OUR PIONEERS LET US AGREE WITH THEM ABOUT THE “FALL OF TURKEY SIGNIFYING THE 5th TRUMPHET. IF NOT THEN WE ARE FORGETTING THE VERY CHART THAT BROUGHT US TO AGREE ABOUT THE 2300 DAYS”. Please check in the GC to confirm this (I think around Pg.380-400). I can’t remember but it is there.
THE TRUMPHETS STARTED LONGTIME. THEY ARE NOT FUTURE. PLEASE HAVE A GOOD STUDY ABOUT THIS TO BE CONVIENCED. OR SEARCH FOR THE FALL OF OTTMANN EMPIRE IN SISTER WHITE’S WRITINGS.
Be blesed all of you who are not only obseving the LORD’s HOLY DAY but are also LIVING HIS SECOMING. I think you know about living the second coming — purifying ourselves such as He is really coming tomorrow or in a few minutes from now.
To : John Trainor
From: R.L.South
I did say in my last post that I have written an article regarding the teaching of Jeff Pippenger on the King of the North.
I have also send him a letter and a copy, and I never received a reply from him.
My email address is is lloydsouth101’btinternet.com
Munu, You “know about the woes and trumpets is that they are not future”. Does this agree with the Law and the Testimony? The Bible says the 7 Trumpets happen AFTER the sealing of the 144,000. Has that sealing taken place in the past?
It is very interesting to read the various comments and views regarding the teachings of Jeff Pippenger,from so many Adventist.
I am also well verse with many of the things that He teaches especially his prophecies,which as cause great problems in the UK Churches, that lead to division, controversy,animosity,ETC]this could not be the will of God.So many are writhing and commenting, but do we really know this man? are we absolutely certain what he is teaching is correct?, I am going to give you my verdict on these questions that I have asked. During the time when we had the problems in the UK Churches,I went and study his documents for about a year, and came to my own understanding,and conclusion that he was totally out of course where prophecy is concerned, and as a result I could relate to those who were advocating his teachings as the only truth for this time. My testimony is to every one who believed in this man teachings, and this was revealed to me in a dream, that Pippenger Movement is not apart of the S.D.A Church, it is rather a different organization, that is what the Lord make known unto me. And I am sharing this with every one, who are aware of his prophecies. FROM R.SOUTH
Jeff is right and I’ve been studying this message for a while and reading Uriah’s and Sister White’s books and there’s no mistake concerning the Trumpets. We are living in the 3rd Woe and 7th Trumpet.
Not possible Kmetz.
What is the “Glorious Land” in Daniel?
The Trumpets don’t have to occur after the “sealing time” because of Rev. 9:4..the seal in Rev. 9:4 is distinguishable..
1)At Rev. 9:4..the falling star gave the command..therefore, if Islam is the commander here, then idolatry is the antithesis of the seal as far as they are concerned..
2)the sealing referred to “those men” and not the “servants of God”..the trumpets are about small, localized wars, not the great controversy..
“So then, there is no prophetic period in Lev. xxvi, and those who imagine that such a thing exists, and are puzzling themselves over the adjustment of its several dates, are simply beating the air. To ignore, or treat with neglect, a prophetic period where one is plainly given, is censurable in the extreme. It is an equally futile, though not so heinous, a course, to endeavor to create one where none exists.” {January 26, 1864 JWe, ARSH 68.12}
Daniel, thanks for your question. May the Lord bless you. In reply to your question I wanted to first make it clear that I am not siding with Jeff in anyway but am trying to tell you what our pioneers knew and what actually happened in 1840. That is – the ‘fall of Ottoman Empire.’ Yes, the sounding of the trumpets are WRITTEN AFTER the sealing of the 144,000 in the Bible BUT it does not guarantee that that is what the Bible says or that they are AFTER the sealing of 144,000 as you said. The book of Revelation and also Daniel are not chronological in the way they were written. For example look at Revelation Chapter 10 which talks about the Great Disappoinment of 1844 during the Millerite movement (Judgment Hour Cry) and Revelation Chapter 11 which talks about the Two Witnesses (The New Testament and The Old Testament – Read the GC to confirm) that came to fulfillment in 1793-1797 in France when they banned and burned the Bible and declared that God does not exist. Please see the GC to confirm as plainly. Therefore the appearance of Rev.7(sealing of 144,000) in between the 6th seal Rev.6:12 and the 7th seal of Rev. 8:1 is not a guaranty that that is what the Bible teaches. This example above and the knowledge of history about fall Ottoman Empire and the belief in Spirit of Prophecy writings should be enough to tell you that the book of Revelation is not chronological and that this is true so that only those that are searching and ‘digging for truth as for hidden treasure’ can actually understand and those who are busy and do not have time for God will get lost even with the Bible in their hands. Jesus said “seek and you will find”. This is how the Bible is written and there is nothing we can change about it – but only to search. I think by this time you have already checked the inspired words in Great Controversy to confirm the stand of our pioneers on the (an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year – Rev.9:15)
Secondly remember that the woes in Rev.9 are not the wrath of God that will be poured on earth (Rev.15 to 16) as the seven last plagues. Why? Because these woes are not coming from God but rather from:-(1)the bottomless pit (1st woe Rev.9:1-11) and (2)River Euphrates (the four angels loosen are actually prepared for war Vs.14. The fact that these angels were bound before is a clear indication that they were not of God. And their loosing is just an acceptance from God for a reason.) It is true that angels of God do war at command of the Almighty but they are not always under chain as if they can cause arm at their will. These four angels in Rev 9:14 are not God’s but of the other side – the Devil but because of some reason, they were allowed to do the malicious acts. It is also true that the Lord sometimes for reasons can allow these evil powers to act see in Job chapters 1 and 2. This should settle your question totally but in case of any doubt feel free my Brother to discuss your views for Paul said “let each man be fully convince.”
On the issue of Jeff I want to make it clear that let each and everyone fully search the Scriptures and SOP to have his or her stand on this but not to bubble here and there saying “I know he is right” or “I know he is wrong.”
To R.South yo said “My testimony is to every one who believed in this man teachings, and this was revealed to me in a dream, that Pippenger Movement is not apart of the S.D.A Church, it is rather a different organization, that is what the Lord make known unto me.” PLEASE CLEARLY DESCRIBE FOR US THAT DREAM AND MAKE KNOWN TO US WHY YOU THINK THAT IT IS FROM GOD. PLEASE DON’T FORGET TO TELL US YOUR FULL NAME BECAUSE WE ARE BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST AND BECAUSE THE TRUTH YOU ARE CLAIMING OM JEFF MUST NOT STAY WITH YOU ALONE. IT MUST BE SPREAD TO ALL THE CHURCHES TO BE ON GUARD. I TELL YOU GOD NEVER GAVE THAT DREAM FOR NOUGHT IF IT IS FROM HIM.
May the Almighty God of Heaven be with you all brethen and cheer up because by the signs happening now we know that heaven is knocking at the doors. Please do not also forget to witness and show kindness to others.”Blessed are they who die from henceforth for their work do follow them.”
Love you all brethen. STAY IN CHRIST
Please correct where am wrong
Hello Munu, Brother, please understand that i am not saying the historical application is false. If you read many more articles on this site, especially of the 7 Trumpets by James White, you will see that while i believe the historical position was taken under the direction of the Holy Spirit to give faith and hope to those in the Great Advent Movement of 1843/4, it cannot possibly be the FINAL fulfillment. Why? Because many words in those prophetic utterances in Revelation and Daniel especially, have not ever been fulfilled.
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For one example: The historical position says that the 2 Witnesses are the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Yet, how many of the Bible’s enemies were killed by fire from the Bible during the 538-1798 period? You know the answer. None.
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So we see we need to continue to study Daniel and Revelation to see where we are in the stream of time, and what our position should be today.
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God, thru Ellen White, said that we will have an entirely different religious experience when we understand Daniel and Revelation as we should. I’ve seen many people go thru the standard prophecy courses, and sad to say, there is no change. It is basically just like studying old history books, without any application to what is coming on the world like an overwhelming surprise.
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I understand there are some things in Revelation that are overlapping in regards to time, but we have this quote from Ellen White in 7RH: “Our Instructor presented the solemn messages that have been given in their order in Revelation, and that are to occupy the first place in
the minds of God’s people.” So we should look for things “in their order” as much as possible in Revelation. Believe me, it has helped give me a different religious experience by studying Revelation in this manner 🙂
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There is much study done now on the 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets especially. Are the 7 Trumpets from God, or Satan? The 7 Trumpets are from God, according to Rev. 8:2: “And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.”
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Please refrain from all caps. It is considered shouting, and while may be useful to emphasize a single word or two, it is very rude for a whole sentence.
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Yes, Christ is at the doors, and we need to be prepared in heart, and giving the message in certain terms to a dying world. Even so, come Lord Jesus 🙂
BryanSDA, “2)the sealing referred to “those men” and not the “servants of God”..the trumpets are about small, localized wars, not the great controversy..”
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That is certainly a fanciful interpretation. Let’s study with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is obvious that the 7 Trumpets are after the 144,000 are sealed.
Gerhard Pfandl of the Biblical Research Institue has written a review of Br. Pippenger’s theories, showing clearly from a scholarly viewpoint where there are some problems.
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He writes: “Comment: This is a basic problem in Pippenger’s response. He believes that the pioneers had the correct view (at least where they agree with him) and anyone who differs with him must surely be one of those mentioned in Isaiah 29:11-12.”
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This has been my experience too, pointing out the very worst thing – the lack of humbleness in the messenger.
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http://www.thesourcehh.org/pdf/Contributors%20Documents/Gerhard%20Pfandl/Evaluation%20of%20Jeff%20Pippenger%20Response.pdf
Daniel said: That is certainly a fanciful interpretation. Let’s study with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is obvious that the 7 Trumpets are after the 144,000 are sealed.
BryanSDA: It is not obvious..thanks for the concern regarding the Spirit but I have been instructed otherwise..If I’m wrong about 1844..my suggestion about idolatry is plausible
The lighting and earthquake at 8:5 was a flash-forward of the trumpets and 8:6 begins where v.2 left off..see 11:19..
If you ask me, only the latter part of the “sealing time” is concurrent with the time the mark of the beast goes out..the sealing has been going on–perhaps even prior to 1844..Rev. 7:3 could simply refer to the last to be sealed before the four winds go out..
The sanctuary message may be harmed by placing the trumpets in the future..We follow Jesus from the 1st apt to the 2nd..Rev.9:13 places Him in the 1st apt with chapter 10 (the Advent Movement) splitting the 1st and 2nd apts..
The subsequent sanctuary references are 2nd apt references..placing Him in the Most Holy Place..
BryanSDA: “thanks for the concern regarding the Spirit but I have been instructed otherwise.” Isn’t it best to stay with the inspired words, rather than man’s teachings?
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It is not possible that the Sealing of the 144,000 has even started yet, as those who receive the Seal of God in their foreheads will be alive when Jesus comes back.
I do not want to offend you, but I have question in regard to your stance on Ellen White.
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According to “time being no longer” there are no tests of time after 1844. So the 5th and 6th Trumpets have to be prior to 1844.
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Men’s refusal to repent happened under the 5th plague and under the 6th Trumpet..they don’t match..
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Question: Do you hold the plagues concurrent to or in announcement of the plagues?
You don’t offend me BryanSDA 🙂 I’m trying to follow the truth. The “time no longer” quote has nothing to do with understanding time after 1844. It has to do with basing any more prophecies on time. Ellen White saw clearly in vision that it took 7 days to fly from this earth to heaven with Jesus – that is time. But it is not a prophecy that on such and such a date, that some event will happen. That “time message” is over.
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The 5th Trumpet cannot possibly have started yet if we believe that the Seal of God in the forehead is in the future (which of course it is).
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Man’s refusal to repent… doesn’t match? I don’t understand…
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I don’t understand your question.
What I mean to ask is, Do you feel the Trumpets and Plagues happen at the same time?..Or do you believe the Trumpets happen before the Plagues?
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I’m not sure I see the distinguishment you made about time..In my view, the prophecies in chapter 9 are based on time..
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I don’t believe the seal is future..it was apostolic..maybe even before that..the “sealing time” is a term referring to the final sealing of the last day remnant..I perceive that you’re settled on this seal being in the future..If I were you, I wouldn’t hang my hat on that too soon..
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There is also a sanctuary vessel mentioned in ch.9..Where we place the “four-horned alter” in time has its consequences..
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I’m actually writing an essay on the Trumpets..it addresses these issues..can I have you look it over to see my reasons?
Obviously the 7 Trumpets have to occur before the 7 Last Plagues as the 7 Last Plagues happen after the close of probation, but the 7 Trumpets happen before the close of probation.
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I’m not sure if there is overlapping of the Seals and Trumpets, or if they are all sequential. We will find out soon enough 🙂
Well you can compare Rev. 8:1 with 11:15..the 7th Seal is after the 7th Trumpet..one has great noises, the other is silent..both are in heaven..
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They must overlap because the Seals begin during apostolic times and end at the 2nd Coming..at least the 6th Trumpet happens before the 2nd Coming (I believe the 7th does too)..
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I would also attribute the sealing of Rev. 9:5 to the seal of Ephesians 1 & 4..and the time prophecies of ch.9 to mean pre-1844..
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I’m not sure I’m comfortable with that positive spin on “finding out”..I believe it is a privilege of being an SDA to know God’s will for the future..this way we are safe from false manifestations..
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There is so much research done on this already..I’ve made a firm decision..Why halt between two opinions?
You are correct in rebuking me on the “finding out” statement. I meant it lightheartedly, because i know of no one who can show unequivocally from inspired writings whether the Seals and Trumpets are sequential or not, but you are exactly correct in encouraging us to study to know what the will of God is 🙂
It is sad to see us Adventist going in an out of all kinds of therefore. The truth be told Sis White really did not approve of the writing of Uriah’s Smith Danielle and the Revelation. Even after the publication of this book she recommended that little books be written on these two prophetic books of the Bible. Her concern that Smith had used far too much of the contemporaneous commentaries of his time and had not depended /relied on the Spirit of God to direct his thoughts. That is why the denomination does not promote the book any longer because there are too, too, many historical and prophetic errors. The Promise is , ” When He the Spirit of truth is come He will guide you into ALL truth.” And yes it is still true the 144,000 are sealed before the Trumpets. I mean this is so clear that en a third grader can see it. Jeff is dead wrong if he preaches and leaches that these things are already past,. Why are we still here then. He is walking in error. That is sad because i have come to like his teaching but error is error and it will never be truth.
Six(6) of the seventh trumpets have already passed. The key to it is to read the Great Controversy.
Here are they:
1st Trumpet – The Fall of Jerusalem (Read Great Controversy pages 17-38)
2nd Trumpet-The Fall of the Roman Empire (Great Controversy pages39-49)
3rd Trumpet-The establishment of the Papal Rome (GC, pages 49-60)
4th Trumpet-The Dark Ages under Papal Rome (GC, pg. 55-264)
5th Trumpet- The French Revolution (GC, pg. 265-299)
6th Trumpet-Spiritualism (the lie which is “the dead is not dead) pg. 500-612
7th Trumpet-2nd Coming
Hello Omar, Thank you for your comment. Yes, that is what is written in the 1911 edition of The Great Controversy. This interpretation of the 7 Trumpets helped the people in the 1843 movement, as they had to have everything fulfilled by that date, as Jesus was expected to return to earth then. But it didn’t happen.
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Further study of the Bible today shows that the 1st Trumpet cannot have possibly sounded, because the sealing of the 144,000 has not been completed yet. William Miller did not ever understand what the “sealing” was, so he cannot be expected to have understood what is prophesied to happen after it occurs.
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Let’s study the inspired words in the Bible and SOP, and not just be surface readers. Also, let’s not take historical quotations and somehow turn them into “inspired writings”.
someone mentioned in an earlier post about the trumpets being future??
Well if we simply stick to the sanctuary symbolism, trumpets 1-6 in Rev’s 8 and 9 are mentioned in conjunction with the altar of incense which is in the Holy Place, it is a clear indication that it is prior to 1844. The only trumpet to have started to sound was the 7th in Rev 11. This clearly shows that the trumpets are historical, for anyone to take Sisters Whites writings to show otherwise are clearly taking them out of context as Bro Pippenger pointed out.
Shalom!
Hello theonewillcome, I’m not sure if you have read all the entire original post, or all the comments or not, but it has been shown unequivocally from the inspired words themselves that the 7 Trumpets don’t happen until AFTER the 144,000 are sealed. As far as i know, no one has yet ever been sealed among that number.
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Actually, if you read the Bible carefully, there is incense also in the Most Holy Place. Please read Ezekiel 9, 10, and 11, as we are encouraged to by the Holy Spirit speaking thru Ellen White, to get a clearer picture of end-time events 🙂
Today i received a email from someone who has created a website basically to refute Jeff Pippenger’s teachings. I’ve looked at it, and it’s just as he says. The url is: http://www.webelievesda.com/
I just love how you guys, so full of the truth, build these site just to proclaim all the error that Jeff is teaching. Why don’t all of you who know so much about the Bible get out on the circuit like Jeff and others are doing and preach the TRUTH! Tell us exactly what the correct teaching is on the daily, the 2520, the trumpets, Islam, the 144000, the close of probation, the 1843 and 1850 charts, precept upon precept and line upon line, Dan. 11:40-45 our founders and what they stood for, our foundation that, when built, sent a firestorm of revival throughout the land like this world has never seen before or since… like Jeff is doing. Surely since you have all the truth you are as interested as he is in preparing us all for the soon return of Christ, right? What is that? You don’t know…you’re not quite sure? You take the time to build these sites and point out every sliver or error yet I see none of you out there doing what Jeff does to help us all understand God’s word. None of you. Drunkards of Ephriam, get out and proclaim the true meaning of ALL of these scruptures you are so sure that Jeff is teaching in error for Jesus is about to return and He will NOT let us go into the last days yet that he would reveal the truth to us that we might yet have time to prepare our characters before probation closes for all of us. You Daniel, Steve and Charles…yes all of you. Teach us the correct and true meaning or our blood is on your garmets along with the badge that reads Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin. Spend even a fraction of time you take to tear down what you claim is false and teach us all what you KNOW is truth. I will look forward to attending your campmeetings as soon as you all get together to proclaim what is really the true meaning of what you say is currently being taught as lies.
508BC, Perhaps you could be helped by anger management courses?
why jeff want to liar?acually what the jeff say say all is true…..hope listen what he saying….don’t be a fool….sorry i used harsh words…listen please….
Go to weaffirmsda.com and read James Whites article on the 2520. He wrote it in the Review and Harold in 1863. Also note how Ellen White supported the new chart in 1863 that did not have the 2520 on it. It was phased out like a lot of ideas and teaching had to be for lack of biblical support. See ya Bro Ed
Thanks brethren for your comments. Would anyone give a good argument with scriptural or SOP support to help us see that the trumpets are still future. Thanks
Hello Mark,
I have a post on this blog regarding a book James White wrote in 1875 called “The Seven Trumpets”: http://great-controversy-movie.com/blog/?p=269
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Please look at the 12th post down – #3905 for a few links to places that have what i think is good info on this topic.
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Any comments/instruction you have on this topic would be appreciated.
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“Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.” This quote is from 1888 Materials, so is not in her published writings, but it agrees with everything else i see in the inspired words.
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May we study to show ourselves approved unto God.
Has anyone thought about this: If the seals, trumpets, woes etc are after 1844 we wont be able to pinpoint what or when they will be. Maybe when EGW says that trumpet after trumpet is about to sound, and vial after vial is about to be poured out, she is just using biblical critic language in describing how close we are to the end. Maybe she is not necessarily stating the seals, trumpets, woes etc have not been fulfilled yet. Possibly it is going to repeat in the future what has already been completed in the past.
Could it be that we are suppose to focus on the three angels messages and not spend so much time on minor, less important things that maybe we are not supposed to know. We know that God gives no man a message as to who the 144,000 are, or when probation will close. But we know these things will happen after 1844, we are just not suppose to put dates on them. Look at this quote from EGW on time setting and knowing times and seasons.
Should we advance in spiritual knowledge, we would see the truth developing and expanding in lines of which we have little dreamed, but it will never develop in any line that will lead us to imagine that we may know the times and the seasons which the Father hath put in His own power. Again and again have I been warned in regard to time setting. There will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time. We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Rev 18) or the coming of Christ. (1SM 188.1)
The first time I watched one of Jeff Pippengers videos and he drew a time line and dated the latter rain falling on September 11th 2001 I got really nerves because I knew we are not suppose to know the seasons of these things. We know they are coming, or are here now, but we are not suppose to time date them. And as we see from above EGW statement we do not know the definite time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Rev 18).
Also if the trumpets, seals etc are after the 144,000 are sealed it would happen after everyone has made there decision on Gods commandments and there faith in Jesus. I’m not says that we should not study these things, all I’m saying is if we do not come to a united consensus on it before Christ comes it will be OK. I have been in the Church for 17 years and have had many bible studies with people, and have been active in bringing in an nurturing new members, and there have been many times they have asked about some hard to understand text. If it is something we are not sure about I will let them know, and maybe share two three different views that we have explored as a church, and so far not one has left the church over it yet. Just remind them of the wonderful truths we do know and understand clearly from God’s word. Truths that the Lord has seen to it we are united on. God Bless, Bro Ed
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How is it time dating when it has already happened September 11? How are we supposed to pray for the latter rain when we do not know when it is? You can not receive the latter rain unless you recognize it.
I remember meeting Daniel Winters in Holland. He misrepresents our interaction there. I did not get ruffled about his false teaching, I simply rejected it. I stll do.
Ellen White directly endorses the pioneer understanding of the trumpets well over ten times. There is aspects of the pioneer understanding of the trumpets which the pioneers did not recognize, but their view is correct still.
One aspect is that the trumpets come in response ot the Sunday law, and the first four were in response to Constantine’s Sunday law in 321, the fifth and sixth were in response to Sunday enforcemeent in 538.
Another asecpt the pio0neers did not recognize is that the angel who sound the trumpets are accomplishing their work by direction of Christ, and their work is directed by Christ from the sanctuary. In conection with this the seven trumpet angels are the very same angels that pour out the seven vials of the seven last plagues. The trumpets and vials are marking judgments brought about by Sunday legislation, and they are directed by Christ from the sanctuary.
If your prophetic study has not allowed you to see the activities in the sanctuary above to the extent that you recognize what is being accomplished in Christ’s work there. then you would probably would not be able to understand the statement about trumpet after trumpet sounding.
Ellen White never disagrees with herself!
She repeatedly endorses the pioneer understanding of the trumpets and therefore it is up to the student of prophecy to uderstand her words in agreement with her other words. The singular reference to trumpet after trumpet is simply an inference that allows those who are willing to see that the trumpets prefigure the plagues and that both activities are accomplished by the same seven angels. Jeff Pippenger
No Time Specified for Outpouring—I have no specific time of which to speak when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will take place—when the mighty angel will come down from heaven, and unite with the third angel in closing up the work for this world; my message is that our only safety is in being ready for the heavenly refreshing, having our lamps trimmed and burning (The Review and Herald, March 29, 1892). We are not told to wait until we see the latter rain falling to pray for it. We are told to always be praying for the Latter Rain to fall. We are told if we do not receive the Former rain, we will not receive the latter rain. It would seem the former rain my be the most important to us individually, to prepare us for the Latter. Also it is OK to recognize events after 1844 as significant, such as Mussolini restoring the papacy in 1929, Reagan appointing an ambassador to the Vatican. God wants us to see the signs falling around us for sure. But we must be careful saying that some season ( latter rain, time of trouble, sealing time, trumpets etc.) was marked by it even if it is in our past but after 1844. I understand when Kennedy (first Catholic President) was elected there were Adventist using that event to show that Christ would come sometime in the next 4 to 8 years. They had their time lines drawn with events leading up to it to prove what they were saying was true. But they were wrong to do so, and we are just as wrong today to make the same mistake of Sept 11th 2001.I know I’m not really suppose to say this, but what if we are still here 40 or 50 years from now. Can you imagine how many big events will happen over the next 40 or 50 years that will probably make 9-11 seem like just a bad day. We are still here after fifty years from Kennedys election. And some people who are still around from then wish they had not got on that band wagon. The fact is God has given us a platform of truth over last 167 years. It has been obtained by much suffering and we should draw together and stay on the platform. We should be careful about trying to jump off the platform and say it is laid wrong and needs tweaking. Whenever a tweak is needed God tweaks it using the whole body of believers. I wish you well, Bro Ed
Thank you Brother Jeff. We talked for around 5 minutes in your room in the summer of 2006. You have an amazing memory! Perhaps you did not mean to show anger at that time. I very well may have misinterpreted the brusqueness and rising tone in your voice to mean something you had not intended.
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And, as pointed out then, the inspired words still state that the sealing of the 144,000 has not happened yet – ever.
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So we can know for sure that there is a future, final fulfillment of the 7 Trumpets, as they don’t start until the 144,000 are sealed. The 5th Trumpet makes this point abundantly clear.
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This is not to say that the historical interpretation of the 7 Trumpets was false. That was God’s plan for that day. Also, it is true that the Bible is written with layers of interpretation, and as long as one interpreatation does no violence to the others, they can coexist peacefully.
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You say the 7 Trumpet angels and the angels with the 7 vials are the same. Is there an inspired basis for that belief?
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Ed, i agree with you totally that Sep. 11, 2001 may be regarded as a blip in the scale of history. I was not alive in 1948, but i’ve read that many SDA prophecy expositors had to change their material, because the land of Israel DID become a nation again. Same goes with the atomic bomb being used to support an interpretation that the beast had brought fire down from heaven.
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So often someone gets up some new theory to fit the flavor of the moment, but then it dies away and leaves the church in a worse state than before, as people see the “failed prophecies”.
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My main problem with this interpretation that the 7 Trumpets was ONLY in the past is that it is a message sure to put our Brethren to sleep.
Ed. Greetings brother, I would like for you and others to consider the following quote:
“There are periods which are turning points in the history of nations and of the church. In the providence of God, when these different crises arrive, the light for that time is given. If it is received, there is spiritual progress; if it is rejected, spiritual declension and shipwreck follow. The Lord in His word has opened up the aggressive work of the gospel as it has been carried on in the past, and will be in the future, even to the closing conflict, when Satanic agencies will make their last wonderful movement. From that word we understand that the forces are now at work that will usher in the last great conflict between good and evil—between Satan, the prince of darkness, and Christ, the Prince of life. But the coming triumph for the men who love and fear God is as sure as that His throne is established in the heavens. – {BEcho August 26, 1895 Par. 11}
One cannot deny the “turning point” of this nation (USA.) Since 9/11 of 2001, this country has not been the same nor
will it ever be. When the crises arrived, “the light for that time is given.”
One thing is for sure, the Millerites stood firm together and unitedly, and some might argue and say that, “not all that the Millerites thought was correct.” I believe that everything on both the 1843 and 1850 chart is correct except the one mistake of the year 1843. 1844 is the correct year.
Another thing is certain as well, Jehovah himself was backing the Millerite movement!
The Review and Herald, April 14, 1903: “The warning has come: Nothing is to be allowed to come in that will disturb the foundation of the faith upon which we have been building ever since the message came in 1842, 1843, and 1844.” She calls the message that they proclaimed in 42, 43, and 44 as the foundation. But she doesn’t simply call it the foundation, she also calls it the platform. She says: “We do not propose to take our feet off the platform on which they were placed as day by day we sought the Lord with earnest prayer, seeking for light.” Ibid.
The “old paths” are the foundation and platform of Adventism, which is the message that came in 1842, 1843 and 1844. There is going to be a group in Adventism, when they look at those foundational truths, is going to say: “We would not walk therein.” Sister White says it over and over: “This is our message.” The Review and Herald, January 19, 1905: “God is not giving us a new message. We are to proclaim the message that in 1843 and 1844 brought us out of the other churches.”
Juan: I just want to share with you how I investigated these statements from EGW about the message of 42,43,and 44. The first thing I did was ask : What is the message that they had, that we should be teaching today? (It really is a vague statement). Was it everything they taught, everything that was on the chart? Is that how we are to interpret these statements? Obviously No. They did not have everything right. They kept Sunday, they believed in the immortality of the soul, many even believed that Christ was a created being. But it is quit clear from the SOP that it was a prophetic, Holy Spirit lead movement. One thing we need to understand is with a vague statement we need more info. So I looked through the SOP for clarification. I really looked for the information, and I found it in a few areas of the SOP, but especially in the Great Controversy. Listen to this statement: Not till we reach this time(1798) could a message concerning the judgment be proclaimed, based on the fulfillment of these prophecies. But at the time of the end, says the prophet, “many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” Daniel 12:4.The apostle Paul warned the church not to look for the coming of Christ in his day. “That day shall not come,” he says, “except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Not till after the great apostasy, and the long period of the reign of the “man of sin,” can we look for the advent of our Lord. The “man of sin,” which is also styled “the mystery of iniquity,” “the son of perdition,” and “that wicked,” represents the papacy, which, as foretold in prophecy, was to maintain its supremacy for 1260 years. This period ended in 1798. The coming of Christ could not take place before that time. Paul covers with his caution the whole of the Christian dispensation down to the year 1798. It is this side of that time that the message of Christ’s second coming is to be proclaimed.(GC page 355) This is the best statement that tells us what the message was. We have a lot more light and understanding today about the judgment and the second advent, but we still have the same message. The Judgment hour message and the message of the Second Advent. Even the millerite preachers were referred to as preachers of the Second Advent. The meetings were often referred to as Second Advent meetings. They were called to give these two messages. Also EGW spoke often and eloquently about these messages. Other minor aspects, or aspects of minor consequence she did not spend much time on. I feel comfortable understanding this is what she meant. Of course she also emphasizes the deep commitment to Christ that they had at the time, and admonishes us to have the same committed relationship as well. This is just my conclusion based on my personal investigation. I hope it could be helpful. May God lead and bless us. Bro Ed
I THANKS GOD THAT BRETHREN ARE LEARNING THE FINAL WARNING IN ADVENTISM .THIS MESSAGE OF FOUNDATION IS ONE WHICH WILL PRODUCE THE HARVEST WITHIN US.PSLAMLIST SAY ,’ IF FOOUNDATIONS ARE DISTROY WHAT CAN THE RIGHTEOUS DO?’ .let US AWAKE FROM SLEEP AND LET PREPARE FOR LATTER RAIN POWER.AMEN
Long ago I used to listen to Jeff and although the teachings of him and his associates seem very logical some even say intelligent; I noticed that the love for my brethren was diminishing and changing into contempt, feelings of superiority crept in.
suddenly I realized he as well as his associates never talked about the love of God for His creation, in the effort He makes to show us what we lack in understanding and experience in regard to a living relationship with our creators.
Why did Christ come to earth?, to debate about the’daily’, about the 2520 prophesy, about 9/11?, or was it because of our sins?.
Didn’t He offer Himself so that we could be able to change our sinfulness, so that we can live? Doesn’t Jesus speak of repentance, sanctification and of being born again? So that we can love Our God and our neighbor?, whitch otherwise will be impossible. Let us get ready so that we will be ABLE to go with Jesus when He comes, and He doesn’t have say ‘go away, I don’t know You’. When Jesus comes is not that important, to be ready WHEN He comes is important.
God bless us all, with love in our hearts for everyone.
Thank you barry, for the heartfelt response. Your experience is similar to mine it seems in this instance.
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Let’s keep pointing people to Jesus, and away from man.