David Gates “Converging Crises” (actual name is “Converging Crises”)
F
David Gates is one of my personal heroes of faith and action ever since i learned about him from the book “Mission Pilot” which i was handed to read in Cambodia in 2006. Many of his sermons have inspired me and strengthened my faith and prodded me to do more for my Master.
In August 2007 in Bangkok, he was a speaker at the ASI convention which i attended. His dynamism was contagious, and he really exemplified the pattern of Jesus – giving your all to save souls. He did make a few comments which concerned me – comments denigrating the leaders of the United States government, and a few odd conspiracy theories. I politely warned him about this in a couple of emails, to which there has never been a reply.
I hadn’t listened to any of his sermons for about half a year, when, in October i think, i noticed that there was some bruha on audioverse.org about the removal of his “Converging Crisis” audio. Reading the reasons given, and knowing Brother David’s conspiracy comments before, i sent a email encouraging the webmaster at audioverse. But actually, i should have carefully listened to the content first before doing that.
What has prompted this review, is that last week a strong SDA friend in India said two of his closest church Brothers had stopped attending church because of this sermon, saying that “Jesus is going to come back before 2031 anyway, so what need is there to go to church now”? Fortunately my friend did not follow them.
The above is the background on this review. I hope everyone reading this understands that i do love and respect Brother David Gates very much. I also hope everyone understands that we must point out error wherever it raises its ugly head – because no error can stand with the truth. I have graded it “F” because it is mixing truth and error. The spiritual message in this sermon is so very powerful and straight, that it deserves a A+++. But Bible-contradicting error is also included – including dissing our government leaders, and setting dates for when Jesus has to return by. The economic information given also is laughably wrong, thus turning away many intelligent minds from the spiritual truths that are contained.
What are in very large quote marks below is exactly what he says in the sermon, or is a summary of what he says. Everything else is my response.
All of the forecasts they make are totally unpredictable, because the future is unpredictable.
Brother David, your “forecast” about their “forecasts” is totally wrong, and you know it. In looking at the median economic growth forecast for example taken from a large sample of economists, you usually get something quite close to the actual figure, with a few of the forecasters hitting the nail on the head. Weather forecasts have been getting more and more accurate, and with the increase of knowledge and use of computers etc., the accuracy of economic forecasting has been improving as well. This accusation is just false.
Nobody is making long-term plans anymore.
This statement is completely false as a 2-second search on the internet will prove.
Things are changing so fast, that there is no way you can possibly know. So people are trying to figure out what to do just for today and tomorrow, they aren’t worried about ten years from now anymore. People used to make ten-year plans. Very few companies today will have a ten-year strategic plan, it is very difficult.
Flat out wrong David. Why are you making such outrageous claims? What are you reading or watching to get to this bent shape of mind?
It is totally impossible to make an accurate ten-year plan.
No it isn’t.
Now it’s my word against David’s. Who is right?
That’s one of the points i’m trying to make in this whole exercise of making a review of this sermon – there are many things that are quite ridiculous, that cannot be proven, and that have absolutely nothing to do with the Three Angels’ Messages. They are “scare” phrases often used by speakers to get the audience to believe that everything they have been taught is wrong.
This is not a good way to reach normal, thinking people. This is what is usually done to reach people who are interested in theories such as aliens/illuminati/zionists/George Bush etc. etc. being behind every bad thing that happens, and that these groups are trying to take over the world. These conspiracy theories are driving away the true-in-heart, and attracting dross to the Little Flock. Enough! Just preach the straight truth, and let the truth cut to the heart without all this falsehood being mixed in with it.
Sin entered the world after 31 years, because Jesus died exactly 4,000 years later.
Not supported by inspired writings Brother. You are guilty of reading something into the text that is NOT there.
2031 is the outside limit of the period allocated, the maximum period allocated for this world’s great controversy….. Jesus will not come back after 2031…. This is absolutely, positively the last generation.
David Gates – you have sinned with these words. God’s messenger says in CEV p.25: “The Lord has shown me that the message of the third angel must go, and be proclaimed to the scattered children of the Lord, and that it should not be hung on time; for time never will be a test again. I saw that some were getting a false excitement arising from preaching time; that the third angel’s message was stronger than time can be. I saw that this message can stand on its own foundation, and that it needs not time to strengthen it, and that it will go in mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness.”
No doubt you did not intend to lead anyone astray by making this statement, Brother David. But by this statement, i know of 2 Brothers in India prone to fanaticism, who have stopped attending church because of what you have said here. They see no reason to go to a sleeping church, because Jesus will come back so soon anyway. You see, by mixing in lies with truth, your whole message becomes a corrupt mass, leading to things that none of us could possibly imagine. Whereas if we stay on the path of truth alone, these people may fall off at some point anyway, but at least their blood is not on our hands. Now will you repent and not repeat this error again? Please David, don’t create a “false excitement” on time again.
If you really believed Jesus was coming back soon, you would spend your time and money differently.
AMEN!
Just type in “bankruptcy 1971 united states” and boom, you’ll find it on the internet. In 1971 the United States, all of its assets was equivalent to all of its debts. And when you have 10,000 dollars in cash and you owe 10,000 dollars to your university how much money do you have? Your net worth is? Zero. That’s called “bankruptcy”, when there’s nothing in the bank.
This is quite funny, but perhaps not in the way Brother David intended. Typing this in and going to the first hit landed me at a page that was pro Congressman Ron Paul, the goofiest “right-wing” member of congress. In fact, he is so goofy, that many left-wingers like him too, resulting in a very interesting phenomenon – a convergence of the far-right and far-left. At least one person on the internet (Charles Johnson at littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog) has started calling this the “Moronic Convergence”. This has an eerily similar-sounding ring to the title of this sermon……
In 1972 the Federal Reserve chairman said…Americans will continue to borrow and borrow and borrow. The United States government will continue to borrow, and eventually, in about 30 years there will be no assets of any kind, we will have consumed everything we own and the entire nation will collapse like a house of cards.
The ball is in your court to prove this quote Brother David. I’ve searched on the internet, and cannot find anything remotely close to this. Please show your source, and not just what you heard on the radio in 1972. BTW, many people believed that aliens had attacked earth because of what they heard Orson Welles say on the radio 🙂
Arthur Burns was the Federal Reserve Chairman when this statement about the US being “bankrupt” was supposedly made in 1971 and/or 1972. Searching on the internet reveals nothing regarding this supposed saying. Now if the Federal Reserve Chairman said such a thing, don’t you think the financial markets – like the Treasury Bond market or stock market would show some kind of reaction – a huge reaction? But it is not there. Yes, the United States did stop allowing foreigners to exchange their dollars for gold in 1971. Some pundits at the time probably did refer to it as “the end of capitalism” or even worse. But until you can prove this, David, i must say that your recollection is faulty.
If you owe 57 trillion, and you own nothing, you are a slave.
The US owns “nothing”?
David talks about some French economic publication by a semi-closed group.
If this is the GEAB report group that you tout in your emails David, i have warned you before, they do not believe in God’s word, and are making predictions directly contrary to the Bible, even saying that Asia and Europe are “decoupling from the US”, and that the US will wane in influence in the world. But Revelation says America will cause all the world to make a Sunday law.
If the government took 100% of everything you make, it still could not pay the interest.
Total baloney. This is the total interest expense on America’s national debt in 2008: $451,154,049,950.63 (source: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm)
451 billion usd is a lot of money, but the GDP the same year was 14.33 TRILLION dollars (source: cia factbook). So you can easily see, the interest on the national debt is much less than even 5% of what the country as a whole earned!
In talking about printing money to pay for the Iraq war and Homeland Security:
I can give Cheney a contract to help him and Bush and other things.
This again is another direct sin, contrary to the Bible, Brother David. Please repent and learn to follow God in all you say and do. Talking like this really disgusts lots of intelligent people, while at the same time, encourages conspiracy-theorists to “fanaticise” the Little Flock.
Does making a jibe at the leaders of the country obey God’s word to “honor the king”?
Is this the group of people you are aiming to join, Brother David? I pray not.
Then he preaches the gold standard, and says we are on no standard.
What does this have to do with our precious Three Angels’ Messages? Nothing. Dross.
That’s where we are right now in our nation, the paper is worthless.
Ridiculous as you well know. Now some may say “he is just using hyperbole to make a point”. But the point is, the words are false, and the impression they give is false.
Bank runs talked about – If they run out of cash in any way….
David, don’t you remember you just said a few minutes earlier that the government was printing cash like crazy thus diluting the value. Now you are saying the banks have no cash. Which is the truth? Or are both false???
The banks don’t have cash anymore.
I’m really concerned for you Brother David. You are speaking you know not what.
We are living in the last months before the final collapse.
But Brother, you yourself just said earlier that: “All of the forecasts they make are totally unpredictable, because the future is unpredictable.” Of course that would include your stab in the dark totally unpredictable also. Why are you so foolish to waste all our time on something you have no clue about?
The gas prices will continue to go of course (meaning “up”). They are having to pay for their oil in euros.
Hello? David? You said what?
You have control of a massive source of fuel (saying that the US is getting oil from Iraq).
Again Brother, you have absolutely no facts to back up your outrageous claims. This is standard far-left fare, and you seem to have bitten off a big chunk of it, just as you have bitten off a big chunk of far-right fare as shown earlier. The facts are, that a very few US oil companies have been granted rights to explore for deposits and/or purchase oil from the Iraqi government. There is absolutely no one anywhere that i know of with any evidence at all of the US taking any oil out of Iraq without paying for it.
There’s going to be a whole new set of laws….
Scare tactics. Maybe true, maybe not.
He basically says that America will become a police state and they will kill everybody in the cities. Then near the end of the sermon he quotes again some “secret” source saying that Hurricane Katrina was a “test run” to enable the government to take over the cities in the future.
Again, scary scary – with absolutely no proof. Brother David, are these things coming out of your mouth leading people to exemplify the characteristics of Jesus Christ in their lives – humble, meek, holy, obedient? Or do these things tend to make people doubters, despisers of authority, headstrong, and selfwilled?
He basically says: The publishing of the economic indicators were abolished in March.
OK, this remark is totally way over the top, as the US govt. continues to publish untold numbers of economic indicators, but probably David, you are talking about the M3 money supply figures. If so, here is the explanation from Wikipedia: “When the Federal Reserve announced in 2005 that they would cease publishing M3 statistics in March 2006, they explained that M3 did not convey any additional information about economic activity compared to M2, and thus, had not been used in determining monetary policy for years. Therefore, the costs to collect M3 data outweighed the benefits the data provided”.
Many countries around the world have never provided this data either. Does that mean that all these countries that don’t provide M3 data including now the United States are in some kind of secret arrangement to deceive all their citizens? Hardly. Why are official statements so hard to believe? Here again, it is interesting on the Wikipedia site that Congressman Ron Paul is mentioned as a vocal opponent of the Fed’s decision to quit publishing M3 figures!
He basically says no one in Bolivia takes US dollars – even the moneychangers don’t take it.
This has nothing at all to do with the value of the US dollar, as you should well know, having traveled even more than myself. The USD is accepted in every country where the government is not anti-US. This is what the Lonely Planet has to say about exchanging usd in Bolivia. “Visitors fare best with US dollars (travelers have reported that it’s difficult to change euros).”
You’d better have some seeds you can plant… Start growing now…. You’d better get some rice and beans.
Brother David Gates, you are again directly contradicting God, who said thru his messenger in Broadside #2:
We are approaching…months from national ruin.
Another forecast that by Brother David’s own admission is unpredictable. Another problem should now be evident. All this “shock and scare” talking has numbed the audience, and outrageous, ridiculous statements have little impact at this point.
He then talks about secret meetings to get the Sunday laws into action in America. In connection with this, he says Bill Knott’s editorial in the Review is “one of the most aggressive editorials i’ve ever read”.
Perhaps Brother David is getting his information from Hal Meyers and Bob Gregory at Hartland, both of whom are deep into conspiracy, anti-US govt. talk of which i have warned them both about in the past. This supposedly “secret” meeting isn’t very secret is it? Why, the people behind it must be a bunch of morons if they can’t even keep such a hush-hush thing secret from some amateur people.
This conspiracy theory stuff is really hard to get out of a person – i know, i used to believe junk like this myself up until about the time of the Waco debacle. Conspiracy theories make the holder of them feel superior to everyone, and make them suspicious of everyone. There is absolutely nothing in conspiracy theories to lead one to become more like Jesus. Let’s throw them all away, and just spread the straight truth.
The Sunday Law will probably pass this year. Everything the pope asks Bush, he gives it to him – everything….Our US President will sign anything that Rome wants. And they want to do it before he leaves office.
Dissing the govt. leaders is contrary to the Bible. And this did not happen.
===”Bankrupt” What does this word mean? Does it really mean as David says that “your debts equal your assets”? This sounds possibly true to someone not thinking carefully – after all, you are “broke” when you are at zero. But in fact, is this the definition of “bankrupt”?
Merriam-webster.com defines it as:
1 a: a person who has done any of the acts that by law entitle creditors to have his or her estate administered for their benefit
b: a person judicially declared subject to having his or her estate administered under the bankrupt laws for the benefit of creditors
c: a person who becomes insolvent
2: a person who is completely lacking in a particular desirable quality or attribute
Well, this means we need to know what “insolvent” means:
1 a (1): unable to pay debts as they fall due in the usual course of business (2): having liabilities in excess of a reasonable market value of assets held b: insufficient to pay all debts
Now this is very easy to understand, and actually, i’m surprised i haven’t seen lots of comments on this one glaring error – You are not “bankrupt” until you have no way to repay your debt.
If Brother David’s definition was true, then everyone who has taken out a mortgage on their home, with home’s value declining below the payback amount of the mortgage (assuming no other debts or assets) is suddenly “bankrupt”! And the young teenager who gets his first job, buys a new car with a loan, and drives it off the dealer’s car lot is suddenly “bankrupt”! (again assuming no other debts or assets). You see, it doesn’t work like that at all. You are bankrupt when you CANNOT pay back your debts.
Isn’t this what Jesus referred to in his parable of the two debtors also? The one owed equivalent to many billions of dollars. He was “bankrupt”. The other owed just a little. He was “in debt”. The “bankrupt” one was forgiven his huge debt, but then tried to squeeze the one not in such a bad condition.
=== Mortgage I don’t know why Brother David’s father took out the first loan on his property, but probably it was because he saw the need for a fairly large sum at once, and this was the easiest way to obtain it. Praise God the financial system was there to allow him to do this. But to do it a 2nd time? – And then a 3rd time? Well, the financial system is making money on processing the loans, that’s for sure. From my perspective, the father would be able to give more money to support missionary work if he would put the income he is earning into some income-producing fund or interest-drawing savings to RECEIVE more, rather than using it to PAY the lender interest on his mortgage until it is paid off.
I got the feeling from listening to this, that the father is planning to “stiff” the bank when money becomes worthless, and just “walk away” as David puts it, from the farm when the time comes. – Not a good Christian witness, but i hope i misunderstand what he is saying.
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Brother David, please delete all this economic and conspiracy nonsense from your sermons, and you will have the straight truth, just what is needed for God’s church, the Seventh-day Adventist church, in this time of shaking.
This email was received from Brother David Gates on March 2 in response to my sending him this “review” of his sermon.
Dear Daniel,
Thank you for your email. Though I appreciate your support of the spiritual message I disagree quite strongly on your financial statements. I am currently with an executive of the Shell company in Europe and he disagrees with you too.
However, that message is now history and the coming crisis has already started. I suggest you don’t waste your energies trying to fight what is already history.
At present my entire focus is on taking advantage of this small window of time god has given us before things get really bad. I am putting up TV networks around the world and starting medical aviation programs and schools. God is really blessing.
I would like to suggest you put your time too into reaching those who don’t know Jesus. I think you will find it more rewarding. .
I will be praying for you.
Uncle David
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Sent March 14
Hello again Brother David,
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Thank you for replying. I wonder if you read thru my whole email, as you made no response at all to the fact that you are directly going against the counsel of God in dissing leaders and in setting time for when Christ has to return by.
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Please repent David. Perhaps your spectacular success in calling to the month the economic crash has blinded your eyes. You see, Satan knows you are doing more than just about anyone else alive today to spread the 3 Angels’ Messages. So he has gotten you to go off on a “economic” tangent – something that has no relation to the 3 Angels’ Messages. And you know what will happen? When the financial mess is over, and things perk up again, your influence will be severely curtailed. People will remember your economic nonsense, and rightly reject that, and in so doing, will reject the truth as contained in the 3 Angels’ Messages also. Please humble your heart David and repent and resolve to teach only the straight truth about Jesus Christ and him crucified.
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May God be with you as you purpose to teach nothing but the straight truth, and look to Jesus,
.
Daniel Winters
Received from David Gates on March 15:
Dear Daniel,
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Yes I read the entire letter. However I have chosen to focus on present truth not on past history like the economic crisis. I am actually surprised how much the subject has captivated your interest.
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I no longer am preaching that message neither am I wasting any time trying to defend or explain it. Neither do I have anything to repent from on presenting it. I did the best to present the conviction that was on my heart and God blessed the message, and He is now blessing the new messages.
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I suggest you put it behind you and focus on taking advantage of the opportunities to reach people and prepare them for Jesus coming. Too many things are happening.
.
David
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
David, you directly sinned against God by:
1. Setting a date for when Jesus has to return by
2. Dissing government leaders
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Now i see another area you need to repent of:
Pride
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Please David, you definitely DO have things to repent of here, and publicly too, as you publicly stated things that hurt the cause of our lovely saviour – Jesus Christ.
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May we always keep our eyes on Jesus,
Daniel Winters
Brother David Gates, pls excuse the ignorance of brother Daniel Winters
The Final Analysis (Mother Teresa)
People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered;
…Forgive them anyway!
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives;
…Be kind anyway!
If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies;
…Succeed anyway!
If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;
…Be honest and frank anyway!
What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight;
…Build anyway!
If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous;
…Be happy anyway!
The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow;
…Do good anyway!
Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough;
…Give the world the best you’ve got anyway!
You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God;
It was never between you and them anyway.
From Vancouver, Canada
What is my ignorance you speak of?
Please show me where i am wrong.
I recently saw part 1 of the converging crisis video, why does the gov’t want to seal the cities and kill so many people?
Does this have something to do with that American Stonehenge where they want to kill off so many people?
Ha ha, American Stonehenge! Yes, Converging Crisis is rightly mocked.
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But it is sad because it did not have to be like this….
I fully agree with the Biblical critique by Daniel Winters of David Gates and some of the outrageous statements he makes. We are all subject to Biblical scrutiny. I make a similar critique of Gates on my blog and particularly his “Lazarus Experience”: See http://njkproject.blogspot.com/2009/11/ministry-of-david-gates.html
Thank you Brother NJK Project. Your analysis of Brother David Gates’ position is much more detailed than my own here. Perhaps you have had personal contact with Brother David? We need to pray for him, and lift him up. He needs to repent, and be humble, and we all need to be like Jesus 🙂
I have emailed David Gates on these issues, but he has not responded. My blog post is based on having listened to over 70+ sermons he has preached which are posted variously on the internet.
Gentlemen,be careful…who are we to make our brother repent,only God can speak like that.The way you are approaching Bro Gates is not helping at all,in fact i suspect you are becoming paralyzed yourselves,as you are becoming judgemental.Satan is so diplomatic,if you are not careful,He can use you,while you think you are standing for the truth.Like He said,lets focus on what as individuals can do for Jesus,stop unconstructive critisism.The use of phrases like “Ha ha ha”.Brothers,come back to your senses.This is war of principalities and rulers of darkness.Hope to meet you in Heaven.God bless you.Benny—Botswana.Africa
While it surfacely may seem here that a blameless “man of God” is being railed against or mocked, David Gates does act, and speak, as if He has a God-given license to fudge concrete/verified facts. EGW speaks clearly against such presumptuousness; particularly against his repeated time settings. Indeed some of the far-fetched things that he has claimed are as ludicrous as e.g., the wild predictions of Futurist-Dispensationalists. Such falsehood do nothing to inspire faith, nor build up the work of God and actually does much more against it. One would have to literally be brainwashed to not indeed “laugh out loud” at these, and it must be emphasized, deliberate, speculative un-truths of his.
(See more on my blog post- link above).
email sent on feb8
Hello Brother Gates,
A Brother sent me links to the sermons from Faith Camp in the Philippines last November, and i downloaded several sermons. You have many good, powerful things that need to be said to bring God’s people to repentance
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In your Thursday 7pm sermon starting around the 19:06 mark you said that: “Salvation cannot be earned by us thru obedience, because we already are sinners. If we wanted to earn salvation by obedience, it is theoretically possible, but it would require perfect obedience. And Jesus is the only one that can say he had perfect obedience. He deserved salvation. None of us can say that”.
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But the Bible says in Ephesians 2:8: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
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And Ellen White writes in 4RH 12-20-1892, Christ Our Hope: “It is impossible for man to save himself. He may deceive himself in regard to this matter; but he cannot save himself. Christ’s righteousness alone can avail for his salvation, and this is the gift of God.”
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This is very, very serious. I’ve never heard you before speak an outright doctrinal error (unless it was the time-setting thing), and to have it be such a big one — it just floors me! No, there is no way anybody, no matter how perfectly they kept the law, could even theoretically go to heaven without going thru Jesus Christ. If it was even possible, then maybe if God waited a million years, another Saviour would appear?!?! Or maybe someone would do “all the right things”, and tell the angels at heaven’s gate that he didn’t need Jesus, because he “kept the commandments perfectly”. Shudder. The thot itself is degrading to our wonderful Creator, Redeemer, and Saviour – Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
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There were two other points of concern in the sermon – one about how swine flu was made for someone to make money. This kind of conspiracy talk serves nothing to get God’s people ready for the Time of Trouble. And then there was odd talk about one family in South Africa owning all the mineral rights to the whole country. Please David, don’t repeat oddball stuff just because it tickles your ears. It makes the Three Angels’ Messages look silly in people’s eyes when you say silly things in your sermons.
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If this was just a slip of the tongue, then just make a public apology, but if you believe this, please repent publically, and believe that Jesus will forgive you, and then move forward powerfully preaching the Three Angels’ Messages
Look up to Jesus,
Daniel Winters
feb.11th reply by David Gates:
Thanks for your comments. I get some now and then and try to read them, but don’t respond to many of them due to time constraints.
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I appreciate your concerns and suggestions. I will carefully consider them I appreciate the spirit in which they were given.
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I do not disagree or in any way intend to teach anything other than salvation by faith. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. My statement was intended to reinforce that point. Only people that have never sinned are exempted, and that applies only to Jesus.
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Thanks again and God bless.
Brother Daniel,
Please don’t waste your time or brother David Gates time
You don’t understand that some of us who are not Christians
or Seven day Adventist would like to hear more sermons or teachers like brother David his approach is simple and his work is big.
I decided a few months ago to start keeping the Sabbath and reading the Bible. When I see someone from the same church or group criticising another brother I wonder if this is the real deal or just another group.
Doesn’t look good on you to criticise and keep track of every sermon
Every word, every minute. I believe that God has give you a gift
And a nice website (I like reading some of you material)
Please don’t ruined it with crazy talk
“While you are proclaiming peace with your lips, be careful to have it even more fully in your heart”
“Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words”
“It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching”
Even in the times of Jesus were people who only wanted to find errors, mistakes on Him. Luke 6:7
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath.
A friend i met in the Philippines almost 5 years ago sent me a email the other day saying how he had heard the Brother Gates was going to attend another “Faith Camp” in the Philippines soon, and since he was asked regarding it by some of his Filipino friends, he searched the internet, came across this site, and was able to give his friends what i believe is good advice – to attend the meetings, but be careful for sensationalism, and make sure to back up everything with the Bible and SOP.
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On a related note, at the Faith Camp last November in the Philippines, Brother David said that it was possible for someone to go to heaven without needing Jesus. When asked in a email about it, he said he didn’t mean it like it came out. Again, no repentance tho.
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We must all repent of our wrongs, and all follow the example of our dear Saviour – Jesus Christ.
I talked with Brother David around 45 minutes at the GC Session, and he said that he had a prayerful talk about this with a couple of leaders, and had decided it is best to tone this down, and focus on other things. He didn’t say that he had given any misinformation, but seemed partially humbled about the whole thing, and i hope and pray he will not fall into the same trap again. Surely Satan is very active on his trail, as David is doing a great work for God to spread the 3 Angel’s Messages.
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On a different note, i’ve been invited to join the GMI team, so am thinking carefully and of course praying about that. I really think it might be the best way to spread this 1858gc book in the various languages, and also in the video format i’ve dreamt about for a long time.
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Please join me in prayer for God’s will to be known in my life, and also prayers for Brother David, as God leads in his many, much bigger endeavors for the Lord.
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Oh yes, just while i was waiting to talk with him at lunch sitting on some books in the back of of his booth, a young man was telling him that someone had just donated a 1/4million dollar helicopter to this Philippine ministry – praise God!
Yesterday marked exactly one month since i came to volunteer at GMI headquarters near Collegedale, Tennessee. Currently i’m learning video editing, camera work, sheetrock work, and general “gofer” work. We are served lunch every day, but other than that, nothing else exchanges hands. It is a nice atmosphere mostly, and i really enjoy working with others who are trying to spread the gospel. Lord willing, we hope and pray that the Holy Spirit will bless our efforts to make MissionTV a compelling tool to wake up God’s sleeping, Laodicean church.
I was the one who edited the “Prepared for the Crisis” video which was filmed August 28, 2010 at the Village Chapel Church. It is mostly good, with some usual strange economic things. The whole tone tho is wrong i believe, as there is no Biblical support for a literal 7 year time of “fat and lean” for the end time. I mean, after the 7 years of lean, are we going into 400 years of bondage????
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NJK, i really appreciate your revised comments on your blog regarding Br. David. May he repent and give the straight truth, and may we help him see the error.
Hello Brother Daniel, I just noticed your reply here. I must say that I was quite surprised that you decided to go work with the David Gates ministry. I can understand your desire to merely work in missions and doing so with an organized ministry can indeed be quite efficient and helpful, however I personally, Biblically, think that since David Gates refuses to publicly repent of his past public errors, and is only adding more prideful erroneous claims and actions to these, working with him is like travelling back in time to try to sail across the Atlantic aboard the Titanic. I.e., by not correcting its course and actions, it is bound to make the same fatal mistake again. As someone suggested on my blog comments, I would recommend another SDA Missions organization. In my view David Gates is too much of a liability, both Biblically, (in terms of bearing false witness, pride, guile and other sins), and also even Legally, (in terms of “published” libel, slander, etc., e.g., by falsely and baseless accusing people of being political subversives (i.e., Jesuit envoys) and thus effectively traitors). If anyone in the future ever wants to mount a legal case for denying any SDA their Free Speech and Freedom of Assembly rights, they can easily use such libellous and slanderous accusations as valid evidence for their legal arguments, and probably sway any judges’/jury’s decision, especially if it is in a time when the vast majority of the population is seeking to silence the witness of SDA’s in ‘any way possible’.
As you may have noticed, I have done a 20+ page analysis of David Gates “Joseph Story Prophecy” and as you indeed recognize in Gates sermon, which was similarly and even to my own shocking surprise, not much, if anything of what Gates claimed there checks out upon careful/factual inspection. It is just the same old story with him, and now even worse!
See the blog post at (currently) note #41: http://njkproject.blogspot.com/2009/11/ministry-of-david-gates.html
God Bless and Guide You Brother Daniel.
I would like to get a copy of Elder Reid’s Sermon from which David Gates’ quoted the 2031 time period. I want to see for myself if Reid was being quoted properly. Also, might anyone know the exact chapter/page number in Desire of Ages where EG White stated that Jesus was hung between two economies. Please advise and thanks.
This post is by NJK Project:
Hello avatarjah. The sermon where I’ve heard Ed Reid presents his “Great Week in Time” view (i.e, 7000 years with 1 day = 1000 years) is in a February 21, 2009 sermon. See http://www.presentruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/godsgreattimelineelder_g_edward_reed_2-21-09_5pm1.mp3 [Time: ca. 43:58ff]
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As this sermon was apparently preached 2 days after Daniel Winters wrote this blog post, it probably was not the specific one that he was referring to in this post, however that sermon was most likely an exact repetition of one of Reid’s earlier sermons on this topic.
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The DA quote is Ch. 72 page 652.
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Apparently David Gates is responsible for explicitly claiming this specific 2031 dating. At 01:17:34ff o f this sermon Ed Reid (irresponsibly) says that he would not say such an extreme limit date because the sermon was being recorded!?? However Reid adds that he believes that ‘time would be cut short’ so he believes the Second Coming would occur before his (implied) 2031 extreme date limit.
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As I have explained in an SDA forum, EGW did not mean for her 4000 or 2000 year statements to be specific (i.e., to the very year or day) as she then would not have been expecting Christ to return in her day as she did, because it would have been ca, year 5900 and not 6000 if Christ had returned in her day. (See http://www.adventistonline.com/xn/detail/1451550:Comment:1212970 – see also relevant/contextual comments)
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Furthermore, as explained also in that forum, the number 7 in the Bible indicates a “perfect representation” and not as commonly assumed: “completeness”. So it here would be indicating a “perfect representation” of the time that it should take to resolve the GC, however not a definite limit of time allotted. So if circumstances on earth necessitated it, time can, and would be, prolonged. The SOP is clear on this. Hope this helps.
Thank you for your detailed response again, njk. It is very strange, that i spent around 30 minutes the other nite researching where in Desire of Ages the “four thousand years” quote comes from, and thot i posted the answer on this comment section, but see that i failed to do that.
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Please pray for me as a leader closely associated with Brother David saw this post for the first time this week, and is not happy about it.
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May we triumph with the truth – because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
Today, as the result of talking with a lady two days ago, and dear couple last nite, i deleted all words that have a mocking tone in this blog post. Please forgive me for the wrong attitude towards someone who, while teaching much error, is still a pastor whom i should respect.
The “rest of the story” continues on with the post titled “goodbye gmi”
http://great-controversy-movie.com/blog/?p=401
and “final call”:
http://great-controversy-movie.com/blog/?p=406
I think it is unfortunate that some will use the mainstream media to discredit warnings of economic disaster on our doorstep. They do this to their own detriment. Thus it was in 1929 right up until the banks closed their doors. The Depression took the majority of the populace by surprise because the mainstream press was assuring everyone of the nation’s financial soundness.
We ARE drowning in a sea of red ink. Most citizens are in debt up to their ears. Municipalities, counties, states, and the nation are in a pretty hopeless financial position.
It is not unreasonable to foresee economic disaster, yet few believe it possible.
karl, Just because i don’t agree with Br. David Gates, does that make it so that i am “using the mainstream media”? I’ve studied how economics works for over 25 years, and know that the current method of creating “money” is evil, and cannot go on indefinitely. Of course we have huge economic problems.
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What i’m saying here, is that Br. Gates is trying to merge his version of economic theory with the Three Angels’ Messages. This is a huge mistake. The truth does not need our pet theories to propel it forward. In fact, many people will reject the truth when they see some false things in the economic things that are being tacked on to it.
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Let’s stay with the straight truth as it is in Jesus, and stop basing our religion on any sort of economic theory.
you should also rebuke Jesus publicly for saying he would come in that generation of the 12 disciples, if you are to carry on this spirit
What are you talking about, Winelfred? Did Jesus ever sin? Did he promote error? Of course not! This is close to blasphemous to suggest that anyone should rebuke Jesus, even in comparison. But to compare the openly-taught errors that David Gates has and his non-repentance of those same errors with Jesus’ teaching a truth is quite odd, don’t you think?
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David Gates teaches much truth. No doubt you have been blessed much by that truth. I have too. When he preaches error tho, and i just accept it, and don’t warn others of the error, then their blood will be on my (and your) hands.
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Please think about this.
Today in the news:
Pennsylvania’s state capital Harrisburg has declared bankruptcy,
Is raising the debt ceiling like borrowing more money?
If I have a $1,000 credit card and with my income I can pay all my bills why would I want to increase my credit to $2,000 doesn’t it show that I’m living on credit taking from Peter to pay Paul.
keep up the good work brother David Gates
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edited by webmaster to remove copy and paste of previous comment
During the Great Depression, more than 2,000 municipalities defaulted on their debt.
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Since 1980, 32 cities and towns have declared bankruptcy, according to James Spiotta, a leading municipal bankruptcy lawyer. Most notable of these were Bridgeport, Conn., population 140,000, which declared bankruptcy in 1991.
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begrave, Please state why you think Harrisburg’s bankruptcy validates David Gates’ teachings?
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Many readers seem to misunderstand why i’ve written this blog post. I understand very well that the current debt-based monetary system cannot last forever. I’ve been studying this since the mid 1980s. I know the prophetic words that men will seek to place business on a more secure foundation but won’t be able etc. etc. etc. These are all TRUE.
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What i am against, is the tendency of a growing number of people in the Seventh-day Adventist church today to try and scare up some people into believing that the 2nd Coming of Jesus must be soon because of today’s financial headlines. They come up with strange ideas trying to predict the future, and when they don’t pan out, honest, thinking people will see that they are totally mistaken on their financial advice, so they must be mistaken on their spiritual advice too, and so miss out on eternal life.
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For one specific example, Br. David Gates was teaching in the spring of 2008 that the banks in America had no more cash. Then, in August of 2010, he had changed his message to say that the banks in America had the most cash they had ever had right up to the crash of September 2008. This was to promote his new idea that there were 7 fat years starting on Sep. 11, 2001, ending on Sep. 11, 2008. There was not much evidence for that position, but it sounded good (i thot it might be true) at the time. Of course we know now in October 2011 that it was not a teaching led by God.