Alberto Treiyer, historicist scholar at 3abn symposium on trumpets of Revelation

Recently i found a review of what happened at the 3abn symposium on the 7 Trumpets of Revelation that was held last February. Since i found it on the site of Brother Alberto Treiyer, i sent him a email. The following is our exchange that concluded yesterday.

My conclusion from this exchange, is that the Historicists who cling to an “all-completed” theory for the 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets of Revelation (except for the 7th trumpet), know that they do not have the Biblical support for their position that people who see a future fulfillment do.
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Hello Brother Treiyer,
Recently i found your review of the recent symposium on the trumpets of Revelation held at 3ABN, and being extremely interested in this subject, have made some comments on your review. My comments are in blue. (for this blog post, i put his writing in blockquote, and my writing in normal type.)

SYMPOSIUM ON THE TRUMPETS OF REVELATION
Dr. Alberto R. Treiyer
adventistdistinctivemessages.com
3 ABN February 18-20, 2011

The symposium was organized by 3ABN after the reaction of many viewers to the conference of Pr. Kenneth Cox (a well known retired evangelist who gives seminars on Revelation), based on the trumpets, toward the end of July, 2010. The discomfort of the public had to do with his introduction of a futuristic interpretation of this section of Revelation (he had included Al Qaida in the trumpets).

This is an entirely subjective, extremely negative review of Pr. Cox’s teaching, which may be warranted or not. But usage of the word “discomfort” is unusual, and not fair to the pastor.

There were 3 views, an historicist view, futurist view, and spiritualized view.

This is extremely interesting. I had not heard of the spiritualized view being propounded in modern times by Seventh-day Adventists, but am not surprised, as many Adventists soon after the Great Disappointment spiritualized away the 2nd coming of Jesus. So now we see this error spreading into prophetic interpretation? hmmmm. We must be near the end!

Both futurists and spiritualists cannot offer a clear projection of the prophetic dates specified in the fifth and sixth trumpets.

Br. Treiyer, reading Revelation in order, as written, believing the words to be from God, leads one to the inescapable conclusion that the 7 Trumpets are in the future. This position is affirmed by the facts that: 1. The Trumpets do not sound until the Sealing of the 144,000 is completed. As it is self-evident that the Sealing has not completed as i write this in 2011, we can know without a doubt that the 7 Trumpets have not sounded yet. 2. The 5th Trumpet has locusts only hurting those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. As of 2011, no one in history has had the seal of God in their foreheads, so the 5th Trumpet cannot have possibly happened yet. 3. The last 3 Trumpets are so bad as to be called “woes”, and nothing in history since the flood of Noah has been able to be called a “woe” for the whole world. So we see that the last 3 Trumpets have not been blown yet. Therefore, your whole point here of futurists not offering “a clear projection of the prophetic dates specified in the 5th and 6th trumpets” is clearly not applicable as they are future events.

Since the tenth century, however, many started to realize that the antichrist prophesied in 2 Thessalonians 2 and the books of Daniel and Revelation was the bishop of Rome.
This was the classical view of Protestantism from the seventeenth to the nineteenth centuries.

This is the problem, Brother. You rightly reject other methods of interpretation, because a further revealing of the scroll of history makes one rightly reject previous interpretations. This is what us “futurists” are doing, because we see many things written in the prophecies that have not taken place yet, no matter how much force-fitting is performed by the historicists. We see a further unveiling of the scroll, and are moving into line with the unfolding of truth, rather than just accepting ideas because that was the “classical view”. Surely you see this – we must move forward on the path of truth, never throwing away precious truths already revealed, but always open to new insights into the Word of God, especially in regard to the prophecies.

The seals predict the progressive declension and apostasy of the Christian Church, and the sixth seal deals with the signs of the time of the end. The first four trumpets foretold the Barbarian invasions of the Western Roman Empire (Visigoths, Vandals, Huns, and Heruli). The fifth and sixth trumpets were regarded as depicting the Saracens and the Turks respectively, reaching to August 11, 1840.

It is your interpretation what the Seals represent when you write that they “predict the progressive declension and apostasy of the Christian Church”. In fact, there is abundant evidence that they are future events also!

This official position of our church was reiterated several times along the years, in the General Conference Sessions of 1883, through a committee named by the GC who gave the report at the end of the congress and declared that the historicist view adopted formerly by our church was foundational for the prophetic faith of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Thank you for this information about the “official position” of our church. In the 3ABN newsbite about this symposium it is written: “the SDA church has no official position on the seven trumpets”. I have studied this for many years, and talked to many people, and did not know myself, and no one else i’ve interacted with either, that our church has an official position regarding the historicist view. Yes, i understand that our church has taught the historicist view, and yes, i agree that God led William Miller and other people of that time to those conclusions. That was his plan to bring them up to a point of time. But does that mean that is the final fulfillment of those prophecies? Does that mean they are forever finished and we can basically just forget about studying them anymore? When the leader of that movement, a man led by God – William Miller – did not even have a clue about what the Seal of God is, shouldn’t it behoove us to take a fresh look at the prophecies to see if with our further understanding today, might there not be new truths for us? To lend support to this view, is the fact that the prophecies especially are for the 144,000, and the 144,000 are not even made up yet!

Jan Paulien said: “The ‘historical’ events for which we are looking are not as likely to deal with politics and nations and ethnic groups as with ideas and philosophies and great trans-national movements throughout the NT era.”

I agree with very little that Br. Paulien says regarding the prophecies, but his logic here is just as reasonable or even more so than those who say “no, it must relate to the ebb and flow of nations only – specifically the Roman nation”.

The fifth trumpet, in Paulien’s view, has to do with secularization from the French revolution (Marxism – Communism – Materialism – Evolution – Rationalism – Ecumenism – Spiritualism). The sixth trumpet would be, always in his scope, a union of secular-capitalism, communism, Islam and the third world with any form of Christianity.

Again, i do not agree with Br. Paulien, but his view makes just as much or more sense than the historicist view. The historicist view has interpreted the 5th and 6th trumpets to be Islam, when there is no evidence for such a position, except a desire to fit the prophecy to something in the past. This type of thinking is probably what is fueling the current craze among us conservative SDAs currently to go for conspiracy theories, to fit today’s headlines with the prophecies.

What to do with the heavenly sanctuary connections which show us that only the seventh trumpet takes place during the time of the priestly ministry in the Most Holy Place (Rev 11:15-19)?

A careful study shows no such thing.

It was heard again and again during the symposium on the trumpets that this section of Revelation is difficult, the most hard to understand. But this section of Revelation enjoyed the greatest consensus during the Protestant Reformation and along the history of our prophetic movement. Why is it now becoming so intriguing and confusing?

Because now we can see that the historicist model cannot properly account for everything in the prophecies – like the locusts only hurting those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads? People just 200 years ago had no clue what the seal of God was, and just skipped that part of the prophecy. We know what it is today, so can properly interpret it.

In order to deny the historicist interpretation, they ridiculed Uriah Smith as much as they could, and stated, emphatically, that the date of August 11, 1840, was not fulfilled and had nothing to do with the prophecy of the sixth trumpet. Again and again was emphasized that even Josiah Litch abandoned this interpretation sometime later in his life.

Josiah Litch abandoned the day-for-year principle later in his life. Uriah Smith did not follow the Testimonies, and was even singled out in 1892 by Ellen White as being the person who had caused the most damage in the previous 2 years.

She said, literally, “in the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest… The event exactly fulfilled the prediction.” She dealt not only with the prediction of Josiah Litch, but also with the “fulfillment of prophecy” (that of the sixth trumpet).

There must be 2 witnesses before we believe a report. I love Ellen White very much, and believe what she wrote and published to be the words of God. In reading many of her books, it is easy to see that while the earlier books had no historical quotes from other authors, later works, especially after Uriah Smith became chief editor, did.

[An effort was done to ridicule the importance of the date 1833, as well as the earthquake of 1755 in Lisbon, which revealed a lack of knowledge of historical facts that no one took time to answer in the symposium.

1833 showed a good display of falling stars in New England, which lent some credibility to the idea that Jesus would be coming back soon. 1755 is another force-fit to fulfill a prophecy by any means available, just as the 1833 event did. However, it is easily understood that these events historicists like to point to in the past for their fulfillment, have a future fulfillment, as these things all happen after the abomination of desolation is set up, an event which has not happened yet. Of course Ellen White is used by God to write that the shaking of the powers of heaven is still future to her day too, so for someone today to point to 1833 as the fulfillment of Matthew 24:29 is not considering the facts.

Uriah Smith did not invent anything. He kept the legacy that we received from the Protestant Reformation from the seventeenth century to the nineteenth century, including the millerites. We may affirm today the same thing by quoting the testimony of secular historians. Their evaluation of history confirms the fulfillment of all the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, not only that of the trumpets.

This is one of the biggest things that led me to restudy the prophecies of the end time, and come to the conclusion i hold today – that many of the things we have traditionally taught as having occurred in the past, will have a future fulfillment. By God’s grace, i have put up 4 of William Miller’s books on the internet, typing them in letter by letter. It was a great learning experience. And it also taught me a very important lesson – William Miller was led by God to make every prophecy finish by 1843! It seems so obvious, but overlooked by nearly all of us Seventh-day Adventists. So we should reexamine those conclusions, and see if it fits the words today, with our increased light on those words. Yes, Uriah Smith basically just kept the line going that William Miller and then James White worked on, having everything finished in the past.

To the additional argument that Josiah Litch abandoned the interpretation of the year 1840 as being fulfilled in the precise date he gave, I replied that he also dropped the date 1844 which we are still keeping because the date was well chosen. We may understand him because he was disappointed that the Lord did not come when He was expected to come. But after realizing what was expected to happen in 1844, according to the Bible, our forefathers in prophecy and mission kept all those dates, as we do today. Because this is the truth.

This is incorrect reasoning. Josiah Litch is not the one who originally came up with the 1843 date or the 1844 date. But he IS the man who first came up with the August 1840 date. To have him later reject that date is very big, almost as big as it would have been if William Miller had repudiated the 1843 date, or Samuel Snow the October 22, 1844 date. Please give the reason why we should believe the man when he came up with the idea, and not believe him when he rejects the idea he came up with.

Some portions of Revelation were not and could not be understood by the readers of the end of the first century, neither by John (see 1 Pet 1:10-12).

Neither by William Miller.

Again, were our historicist forefathers wrong when they saw the connection of the hails with an army that fell upon Rome from the northern European lands (first trumpet); the connection of the blazing mountain with an army that fell upon Rome from the hot lands of north Africa (second trumpet); and the star that falls from heaven in the third and fifth trumpets, as armies that came from the east like the stars of heaven, to invade the Roman territory? Not per se. While sometimes these connections are not really necessary, they may be legitimately kept as an additional evidence of its fulfillment.

They were correct in interpreting them that way at that time, as that was the will of God. With increased light today, we are held accountable for more, and if we stop at where our forefathers stopped, then we are guilty of the same stagnation as the Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists etc. who were all at the vanguard of new light in their day, but later fell away because of not advancing in the light.

Jon Paulien repeated several times that we may gather all the statements of E. G. White and cause her to say whatever thing we want.

That is unfortunately true. The reason is, is that there have been so many compilations and massagings and editings, that it is difficult to know what to believe, unless one goes back to the original books. Even the E. G. White Estate admits publicly that the changes to the 1911 Great Controversy were done by committee. So one can find statements that are 180 degrees opposite what was in the 1888 edition of the same book!

According to E. G. White, the sealed book of Rev 5 was not yet taken and opened. This shows us that at the inauguration, that book was not yet sealed.

“Not yet taken and opened” at what point in time?

J. Paulien announced that he is trying to form a kind of Biblical Research Institute in Loma Linda.

Bad news!

But, please! Let us progress in our understanding and interpretation of the apocalyptic prophecies along the same lines as our forefathers!

By following William Miller’s rule of interpretation #13: “To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfilment of a prophecy. If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the true event. But if one word lacks a fulfilment, then you must look for another event, or wait its future development. For God takes care that history and prophecy doth agree, so that the true believing children of God may never be ashamed.” we will not only hold to the everlasting truth that they held to, but also be moving forward with Jesus on the path that leads to the eternal city.
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Please may we do all under the leading of the Holy Spirit to lead our people to a clearer understanding of the prophecies, so we can be unified and ready for the soon coming Time of Trouble.

Keep your eyes up on Jesus,
Daniel Winters
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Reply from Alberto Treiyer:

I started to read your blue comments but I stop when I saw that you have not read my book The Seals and the Trumpets. Brother, read that book, the most documented book regarding the trumpets under a historicist perspective, and you will find your key questioning answered. Blessings, Alberto.

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Please show me where i can read your book online then.

Thank you,
Daniel Winters
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From Alberto Treiyer:

You cannot read my book online. It is sold in the ABCs, and I do it also. www.adventistdistinctivemessages.com

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Very well, then please answer this one paragraph at least:

Br. Treiyer, reading Revelation in order, as written, believing the words to be from God, leads one to the inescapable conclusion that the 7 Trumpets are in the future. This position is affirmed by the facts that: 1. The Trumpets do not sound until the Sealing of the 144,000 is completed. As it is self-evident that the Sealing has not completed as i write this in 2011, we can know without a doubt that the 7 Trumpets have not sounded yet. 2. The 5th Trumpet has locusts only hurting those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. As of 2011, no one in history has had the seal of God in their foreheads, so the 5th Trumpet cannot have possibly happened yet. 3. The last 3 Trumpets are so bad as to be called “woes”, and nothing in history since the flood of Noah has been able to be called a “woe” for the whole world. So we see that the last 3 Trumpets have not been blown yet. Therefore, your whole point here of futurists not offering “a clear projection of the prophetic dates specified in the 5th and 6th trumpets” is clearly not applicable as they are future events.

Thank you,
Daniel Winters
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From Alberto Treiyer:

Sorry. I don’t answer questions like this by the internet. Read my book and you will find a wide biblical and historical documentation on the matter, Alberto.

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Sorry you feel this way Brother. It has been my long experience that people who do not answer straight questions are not telling the truth. I hope that is not the case this time. If what you believe can be supported by the inspired words, why would anyone charge to understand them? Please understand that i have no easy method to purchase your book, and to force one to spend money to get a question answered is certainly foreign to all the true men and women of God i have ever known.

Please consider these things.

Keep your eyes on Jesus,
Daniel Winters
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From Alberto Treiyer:

Sorry. Many people like you ask me questions on different matters. For a certain time I answered everything. But I had to take a firm decision of not to allow the devil to occupy my time in such a way as to hinder me of preparing more material. I am giving seminars everywhere, and concerning the trumpets I have about 500 slides. I wrote a new book on the trumpets, simplified, to help those who don’t take time to read what I wrote with a tremendous amount of documentation as I did in The Seals and the Trumpets (more than 400 pages).

But since you are testifying of a presumable “long experience” let me tell you that I have also a “long experience” with people like you, who ask questions not to try to understand but to satisfy their curiosity…, Alberto.

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May God help you to repent, Brother.
Daniel Winters
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From Alberto Treiyer:

May the Lord heal you from your pride.

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So this looks to be the end of our discussion. I surely didn’t do this all to “satisfy my curiosity”, i want to know the truth about the prophecies, so i can be ready myself, and help teach others to be ready also.

Lord, may your people be able to stand together on the platform of truth, so we can be ready for the soon coming Time of Trouble, warn others of the 7 Trumpets, and eagerly look for your return.

19 thoughts on “Alberto Treiyer, historicist scholar at 3abn symposium on trumpets of Revelation”

  1. been studying this a great deal lately and reading everything that is ‘out there’ and with much prayer, hopefully soon, there will be postings on your forum re the trumpets…. God willing

  2. For those who believe and teach that the seven trumpets have not sounded yet means that they will be fulfilled while the seven last plagues fall upon the earth.

    The four first trumpets were judgments that fell upon Pagan Rome at the hand of the barbarians for her rejection of the light of the Gospel and for persecuting God’s faithful. God was forced to gradually withdraw His protection from Pagan Rome until it fell in A.D.478.

    The fifth and the sixth trumpets were judgments that fell upon Papal Rome at the hand of Islam between 1299 and 1840 when the sixth trumpet ended (as shown in the book The Great Controversy, p.334,335) for her rejection of the Gospel brought to her in the days of the Reformation and for persecuting God’s faithful.

    The seventh trumpet will involve judgments that will fall upon Babylon the great after the close of probation for having rejected the loud cry of the third angel and for persecuting God’s faithful.

    These judgments will constitute the seventh trumpet. They wil be the seven last plagues when God’s protection shall be fully removed from the wicked and Satan will have entire control of the finally impenitent. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, will have been at last withdrawn. The wicked, no longer sheltered by divine grace, will have no protection from the wicked one.

    In the Revelation this is described in the language of the seven last plagues as though these judgments will come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked but we know from the Testimonies that the judgments of God do not come directly out from the Lord upon sinners but His protection being removed, there is no more protection whatsoever from Satan and his evil angels.

    sky

  3. I fogot to mention that the sixth trumpet also involved the French Revolution which inflicted a deadly wound to Papal Rome shortly before the trumpet ended.

    sky

  4. The seal spoken of at the time of the fifth trumpet was a seal that could be had in all ages of the world. It is not talking about the final seal but about about a daily seal. This seal the disciples of Christ had received. See Eph.1:13.

    There were those at the time of the fifth trumpet who had the seal of God in their forehead and these were protected. They were living according to the light they had received. They did not have the final seal which is to be received after the loud cry at the time of the great final test.

    sky

  5. sky wrote: “For those who believe and teach that the seven trumpets have not sounded yet means that they will be fulfilled while the seven last plagues fall upon the earth.”
    .
    No, the 7 Trumpets will fall BEFORE the 7 Last Plagues that are poured out directly from the presence of God.
    .
    No Fred Wright teaching can overturn the Bible truth that God does destroy, and will destroy the wicked – thank God!

  6. Fred Wright is dead and he spoke for himself while he was alive. I speak for myself. I am following the divine counsel to examine all things and retain what is good. I do not believe everything Fred Wright taught but I see light from the throne of God in his book Behold Your God.

    Let us beware of rejecting light just because it does not come the way we expect it to come. See D.A.232.

    Let us beware unless we repeat history in our own personal lives:

    “The trials of the children of Israel, and their ATTITUDE just before the first coming of Christ have been presented before me AGAIN and AGAIN to ILLUSTRATE the POSITION of the people of God in their experience before the second coming of Christ–how the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to BLIND the minds of God’s servants, that they may not be able to DISCERN the PRECIOUS TRUTH.” 1 S.M.406.

    sky 🙂

  7. There is no evidence whatsoever that the seven trumpets will fall prior to the close of probation. How do you explain this interpretation when the SoP tells us clearly that the sixth trumpet ended on August 11, 1840? This is found in The Great Controversy, 334,335 as I have already given you the reference in my previous post.

    What will you do with that information Daniel?

    sky 🙂

  8. Plus the fifth and sixth trumpets ivolve preaching time before the close of probation and yet in 1 S.M.188 we are clearly told that there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time.

    sky

  9. Those who claim that the fifth and sixth trumpets are in still in the future, before the close of probation, forget that these trumpets involve preaching time. But in 1 S.M.188 we are clearly told there that there will NEVER AGAIN be a message for the people of God that will be based on TIME.

    The fifth trumpet involved 150 prophetic days (150 literal years between 1299 and 1449) and the sixth trumpet involved 391
    prophetic days (391 literal years) plus one prophetic hour (15 literal days) which ended on August 11,1840. (G.C.334,335)

    So those who claim that these trumpets will be fulfilled before the close of probation have no other choice but to teach that these trumpets are in literal time just as those who wrongly re-apply the 1260,1290,1235 prophetic days of Daniel 12 in literal time having the Sunday Law as their point of reference or starting point. But we cannot do this for the simple reason that the Lord has
    already told us that after 1844 there will never be a message for the people
    of God that will be based on time. Plus by re-applying these prophecies in
    literal time in these last days one predict when the loud cry will end
    and when probation will close and one could also predict when Jesus will come. One would only have to make simple calculations.

    But on page 191 of Selected Messages, Vol.1, we read, “God has not revealed to us the time when this message–third angel’s message–will close, or when probation will have an end.”

    sky

  10. Sky wrote: “I see light from the throne of God in his book Behold Your God.”
    .
    The light there, Brother, is from the throne of Satan, as God had his servants write things that Fred Wright directly contradicts.
    .
    Trying to pin the “no more time” accusation to those who show that the 5th trumpet HAS TO be in the future, is not rightly dividing the Word of God. Just because some events in the Bible are still in the future, does not mean anyone is trying to raise up some excitement based on time. That is what is meant in the Holy Spirit’s words to Ellen White.
    .
    Many of the prophecies have dual or even triple fulfillments, as some of them were fulfilled in 70AD, some leading up to 1844, and obviously some at the end time, as “every word” has not yet been fulfilled. For example, under the 5th Trumpet, it says those stung will seek death but it will flee from them. That has never been fulfilled in history. Of course the fact that the 144,000 are not sealed yet is the proof that the 7 Trumpets must occur in the future.
    .
    Let’s sound the warning, as many in God’s house are asleep to these things, thinking they are almost all past, and we are just waiting for the Sunday Law, Loud Cry, Close of Probation, and Jesus’ Coming. NO! We still have much to be fulfilled, and the end times will be “Woe, Woe, Woe”.

  11. It is you brother Daniel that needs to repent. Alberto told you the right thing. Your review did not impress me one bit, and your responses to him, I might add, were a bit on the childish and accusatory side.

    In all Peace that Passes Understanding,

    Lysimachus

  12. Hello Lysimachus,
    I wrote Br. Treiyer asking him many questions, to which he replied to buy his book. So i pared the questions down to one, to which he replied the same thing, and basically added that i am led of the devil to ask him questions to divert him from his work.
    .
    He added that he has “a “long experience” with people like you, who ask questions not to try to understand but to satisfy their curiosity…, ”
    .
    He is judging my heart, something Jesus directly commanded us not to do, so i asked him to repent.
    .
    Please show me where i am wrong in asking him to repent for breaking the command of God.

  13. Hey Bros and Sis, I just have some question in humility but with deep concern, Futurist point of view, do you have a suppose idea of the future events for the 7 trumpets? and secondly what is the seal of God, Is King David sealed of God for his Kingdom to come? how about all those who died in Christ are they not sealed of God? Those that are dead without Christ have they not been sealed for destruction? why don’t we take some time to consider the seal of God? Why do we make it to be limited to the future? if You your self should die now in Christ, are you not sealed for Eternity?

    Ephesians 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: In whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of Promise

    Ephesians 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    John 6:27 – Labour not for the meat that periseth but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you for him hath God the Father Sealed.

    The people sealed of God in the end will have 2 things generally in common Isaiah 8:20 and Revelation 12:17

    were the men of the Dark Ages who stood firm for all they knew about the truth are they not sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption?

    Are there more than one seal of God i might not know about tell me so i can learn.

  14. 7thdayman, the tone of your post is one of the most humble I’ve seen on this blog. Thank you. Please realize that I don’t have all the answers either, but have studied this out for many years, and wish to give people what is the truth as I currently see it 🙂
    Agreed 100% that there is a “sealing” by the Holy Spirit when we are baptized. BUT, there is a special “sealing of the 144,000” at the end time.
    .
    Present Truth 1849-8-1 “while they had started on their mission to let them go, the merciful eye of Jesus gazed on the remnant that were not all sealed, then he raised his hands to the Father and plead with him that he had spilled his blood for them.–Then another angel was commissioned to fly swiftly to the four angels, and bid them hold until the servants of God were sealed with the seal of the living God in their foreheads.”
    .
    So we see the sealing was after 1849.
    .
    To the Little Remnant Scattered Abroad
    1846-6-4 “They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus’ coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake.”
    .
    So we see that the 144,000 are the number of those sealed. This is the number of those who never die, and are alive to great Jesus in the clouds.
    .
    If I can be of service to you, please let me know 🙂

  15. Just found your critique of the symposium on the trumpets. First of all alot of your discussion with Alberto Treiyer was extremely biased on both ends. I fault Him for not giving you a fair hearing and answering your questions. And you for being so critical of His comments. Also you were very quick to dismiss Jon Paulein’s attempts to keep things biblical. I frequently visit his facebook page where he is presently conducting a verse by verse online interactive commentary on Revelation. You will find that he is very humble and open-minded. I appreciate his scholarship and would recommend that you visit his website.www thebattleofarmageddon.com. You might just learn something about dialoguing with those you disagree with. While I don’t agree with either of them I do agree with you that the trumpets are in the future. However I think that alot of your previous comments are caused by a misreading of the text. Revelation should be taken as it reads. There is no reason for historicist, futurist,or even idealists, or preterists to be dogmatic about unfulfilled prophecy. After studying the trumpets for almost 30 years I have come to the conclusion that Revelation 8-11 happen literally in chronological order. God is going to wake up the world through the trumpet judgments. John did not see a bunch of symbols but real literal burning hail, burning mountain,star falling, and darkness. These first four are natural disasters and when they happen all the schools of prophecy will be seen to be false. If Revelation is read as a story from front to back as it is supposed to be the mystery is cleared up. I have read literally hundreds of commentaries from the church fathers through the middle ages to the present day. None of them take the Revelation just as it reads. These first four trumpet judgments will
    affect all of the natural world. The three woes warn of the coming of Satan with his angels. The only way to avoid the deception is to accept Jesus and let Him seal and ground us in the truth of God’s word. We need to quit quibbling over things that haven’t happened yet and seek God’s revealed will for his servants at this time. Make sure we know the truth about our heavenly Father’s character. So when the trumpets do happen we can be God’s witnesses who can reveal Him before the world which will be in total confusion and in need to see a Revelation of Jesus Christ in His saints. Pray that we can be that revelation.

  16. stupaul, Thank you for your critique of my comments.
    Regarding Jon Paulien, I’ve read enough of his work to know he is in deep error.
    I’ve read several works by people who believe the Seven Trumpets will take place literally, as I believe they will.
    God bless.

  17. The trumpets are the response to the petitions of the souls under the altar to vindicate that trumpets cannot fold considerably over the seven churches and seven seals, inasmuch as the martyrs slain by Babylon and the eighth king of Revelation 17 cannot be omitted as essential constituents of the intent of the fifth seal. The trumpets cannot fold considerably over the churches and seals, inasmuch as the seventh month of Tishri cannot be equated with the seven months prior; it is the seven churches that actually represent the “new moon” observances between the spring and autumn festivals. The trumpets cannot fold considerably over the churches and seals, inasmuch as the prohibitions against harming those with the seal of God in the fifth trumpet cannot be divorced from God’s use of those who disavow Christ to separate the wheat from the tares, the chosen from the reprobate, nor can the principle of Matthew 12:25-26 be divorced from the phenomenon of the sixth trumpet; under such scrutiny, the fifth, nay the first five trumpets must represent God’s judgment on the church before he judges the reprobate in the sixth trumpet, in conformity with 1 Peter 4:17-18. All the evidence supports the historical phenomenon depicted by the trumpets commence with the seventh seal in conformity with how the phenomenon of the seven vials or final plagues commence upon the blowing of the seventh trumpet. In such a perception, the trumpets maintain terminological and thematic correspondence with the sealing of the 144,000 and the three angels in Revelation 14.

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