Exchanges with Mr. Grotheer

The following was initiated by some material i received in May of 2000 from Mr. Grotheer. His main ideas can be gleaned from his little booklet: "Jerusalem in Bible Prophecy". While i agree whole-heartedly that the man of sin or beast or whatever is going to physically plant their palaces in Jerusalem, and all the eyes of the world will be on that particular plot of land, i totally disagree with the idea that Luke 21:24 has been already fulfilled. Mr. Grotheer says that the state of what is today called "Israel" retook Jerusalem in 1967, thus ending the "times of the Gentiles". To prove his hypothesis, he has to have Jesus finishing his ministry in the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary also in 1967!!!!!!!!

You can read below my letters to him and his letters to me - all word for word. I wrote to him either on a aerogramme or postcard.

00/05/28
To Wm. H. Grotheer,

A friend sent me a copy of your pamphlet "Jerusalem in Bible Prophecy" along with WWN volumes 28, 29, 32 (-6), & 32 (-12). I'm sure you are sincere about your interpretation of Luke 21:24, and i respect you as an elder who has spent more years studying his Bible then i've been alive. However, if there is someone teaching a false doctrine and isn't aware of it, then i have a duty to warn them so they can plant their feet firmly on the path and not lead others astray.

First of all, do you believe Luke 21 is written in order? Sure Christ was giving an immediate prophecy for his followers in his day, but isn't he talking specifically about the end of the world? Aren't Luke 21, Matthew 24, & Mark 13 essentially talking about the same events? How about Luke 21:12? Do you know anybody who was brought before kings and rulers for Christ's name sake just before 1967? Verse 23: do you know anyone just before 1967 who had a woe pronounced on them because they were pregnant or nursing babies?

Even the casual reader of scripture can see that Revelation 11:2 is talking about the same thing as Luke 21:24. Are you saying that the 42 months ended in 1967?

Perhaps you can help me understand what the word "Gentile" means. I always thot it referred to the uncircumsised in heart. That the current Zionist state is "Gentile" seems quite evident.

You are trying to say on page 5 of this pamphlet that because after 1901 Ellen White didn't refer to the national sunday law as a sign, that it isn't a sign. If God had her write that it was no longer a sign, then i would believe it. The only evidence you put forth to show me what you're saying is true (from the Spirit of Prophecy) is a reference she made regarding events to happen concerning Jerusalem. Nothing there about doing away with the sunday law sign, and also nothing about changing signs.

On page 7 you write "no longer are the nations under the merciful intervention of God..." This quote is noticeable for its enormity, and lack of scriptural or SOP support. In fact, in Volume 4 of the SOP on page 398 is written: "...the crime which shall fill up the measure of her iniquity is that of making void the law of God." And on page 410: "When Protestant churches shall seek the support of the secular power, thus following the example of that apostate church, for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution, then will there be a national apostasy which will end only in national ruin." So, our country has not apostasized yet, so how can you say that God has totally rejected her?

Do you realize what you are saying on page 9? You are saying that Jesus isn't in the Most Holy Place now! You say he's finished that, and he's out in the courtyard cleansing the altar. Is that your intention?

Page 10: You say "the spiritual leadership of the Jewish Church had passed the unseen line! They could not repent. This was prior to 34 AD". Acts 6:7 doesn't support this view.

On page 11 you say that Israel's probation as a church/nation closed with the stoning of Stephen. Chapter 17 of the 1858 Great Controversy seems to say it was their killing Jesus that sealed their nation's fate. And that just makes common sense too. God worked with the Israelites as a nation for many years. And only a super manifestation of enmity towards God would divorce themselves from God's care. The same holds true today. What would lead anyone to believe that some Zionist group claiming a plot of land, and another step back to Egypt by the Seventh-Day Adventist leaders, should divorce all corporate entities from God's care? No, it will be something much bolder and more dramatic. There won't be a question in any true seeker's mind when the Sunday Laws are passed & enforced, that then the U.S.A. anyway will have divorced herself from God.

On page 12 are you saying that the everlasting gospel is not to be given to nations anymore? On page 15 you seem to be saying that Jesus was in the Holy Place? Yes, the Catholic Church will plant their palaces in Jerusalem some day.

May we give the trumpet a certain sound is my prayer,
Daniel Winters


June 10, p.1 June 10, p.2

00/07/01
To Brother Grotheer,
Thank you for your letter of June 10.

In regard to many prophecies concerning the last days, your explanations are in line with the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy statements. It's all there, written out for us, but most SDAs seem to want to think in "spiritual" terms only. Many people will be shocked when the pope plants his palaces in Jerusalem etc. We surely will be left without excuse when the final developments occur just as prophesied!

Thank you for explaining what the Greek word "EOVOC" means. I checked it in the Blueletter Bible and noticed that the same word is used in Revelation 11:2. Thank you for confirming that Rev. 11:2 and Luke 21:24 are talking about the same event. You verify this again when you say "after AD34 the old city was no longer the holy city of God, nor was literal Israel, the people of God." This means that the Zionists in control of the plot of land they call "Israel", are actually part of the "Gentiles"!! You link Luke 21:24 with 21:20. Does that mean the verses in-between are all referring to the same event? In comparing with Matthew 24 it is easy to see that ALL these verses have another application, another fulfilment at the end of time. You know that verses 20 to the middle of 24 have not been fulfiled this century. And it's obvious that verse 25 has not either. So why do you imagine to clip out the last 1/2 of verse 24 and try to fit it into some Zionist group's actions?

While there can be difference of opinion regarding the prophecies and we still be brothers, we cannot be so while you tear down a foundation pillar of the faith. I'm referring specifically to your theory that Jesus is no longer in the Most Holy Place. Yes, i re-read Leviticus 16 like you mentioned for me to do. It clearly shows like you said; ministration by the High Priest outside of the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement. Of course this agrees with the rest of God's Word. We know that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in 1844 and is now pleading our cases before the Father. 1858 Great Controversy chapter 28: "but the third angel was pointing them to the Most Holy Place, and those...embraced them in their order, and followed Jesus by faith into the heavenly Sanctuary. These messages were represented to me as an anchor to hold the abody. And as individuals receive and understand them, they are shielded against the many delusions of Satan." and "...the Most Holy place where Jesus stands before the ark..." OK, you may say, but Jesus is through with that phase. If so, then what about this statement in the 1851 Experiences & Views p.19 - "Then I saw that Jesus would not leave the Most Holy Place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction."? Page 44 shows that "He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the Holiest where the Father sat." "And I saw those who rose up with Jesus send up their faith to him in the Holiest..." Where was Satan? He "appeared to be by the throne..." This throne is in the Holy Place.

Back to the 1858 G.C. chapter 35; "As Jesus moved out of the Most Holy place I heard the tinkling of the bells upon his garment, and as he left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man, and an offended God... Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while he was in the Most Holy place, he placed back upon the originator of sin, the Devil." If Jesus is not in the Most Holy Place now, then who will mediate for us? Do you believe that every case has already been decided? Do you intend for me to return to the apartment where Satan appears to be and offer my prayers to him?!

Let's work to build up the faith of the body of believers.
Daniel Winters
P.S. In my previous letter i wrote "Seventh-Day Adventist". It should have been "Seventh-day Adventist". I'm sorry if this caused any confusion.
P.P.S. Lenn Trainor gave me information regarding your work.


July, 14 p.1 July, 14 p.2

00/07/29
Writing to Wm. H. Grotheer
Thanks for continuing the dialogue regarding the "Times of the Gentiles". I was most disappointed that you did not touch on the Spirit of Prophecy quotes showing very plainly that Jesus will stay in the Most Holy Place until every case has been decided for life & death, and that when he does step out, the 7 last plagues will begin to fall.

As regarding Revelation 11:2, i understand your point of view. When nearly the exact same wording is used as in Luke 21:24, it makes one sit up and take notice. It's very possible i'm wrong concerning this prophecy, but the wise at the end time will all understand! Praise God! The last sentence in your letter made me see that i have not made my position clear on the Luke 21:24 prophecy. I agree whole-heartedly that this will be literally fulfilled. "Will be". It has never been fulfilled in the end times yet. I understand Luke 21, Matt. 24, Mark 13 etc. were prophecies for those living in Jesus' time, but their main application is for those who live at the end of time isn't it? How can anyone go down the list of: 1. Many false christs 2. Hear of wars 3. Nation against nation 4. Earthquakes, famines, pestilences 5. Fearful sights in the heavens 6. Be brought before rulers for Jesus's sake 7. Betrayal by parents 8. Some put to death 9. Hated by all 10. See Jerusalem surrounded by armies 11. Those in Judea flee to the mountains 12. These are the days of vengeance 13. Woe to the pregnant 14. Fall by the edge of the sword 15. Be taken captive by all nations 16. Jerusalem trampled until times of Gentiles fulfilled 17. Signs in the sun, moon, stars 18. Distress of nations 19. Men's hearts failing them for fear 20. Powers of heaven shaken 21. See the Son of Man; and not think they aren't literal? No, no, i definitely believe these will all be literally fulfilled:) In the same manner, i believe Revelation 11 will be literally fulfilled also.

One basic misunderstanding here is; "who are the Gentiles of Luke 21:24?" You seem to be saying that everyone who claims to be a "Jew" is not classified as as a "Gentile". I've done a little research recently on the founding of the country today called "Israel". Those at the head of the movement for a country & still in control today are Zionists. ie: Gentiles! If this was just a disagreement over who constitutes the Gentiles, i would let this subject drop as we can have varying opinions. But when to support this view, someone takes my Mediator out of the Most Holy Place, i have to warn them so they can come back to the platform of truth.

Talking about the church in Revelation as parallel instead of consecutive is exciting! Yes, yes! I'm sure there is a gold-mine of truth there. My only other area of concern regarding what you write, involves your stance regarding the Spirit of Prophecy. What made me first wonder was the place where you wrote that since God did not have Ellen White write anything after 1901 regarding the sunday law as a test, that it is not a test anymore. Maybe that was just an unwarranted idea, i thot, but i noticed here and there you espoused "The Bible only". No, when the world is in darkness & the church in midnite darkness, i definitely want the lesser light to lead me! Then i was taken aback in the XXVIII - 11(95) WWN where you quote somebody who said that anybody staying 3 days is a false prophet!! That would make Ellen White a false prophet along with Elijah, Paul, etc.

A Lynn Trainor changed his name to Lenn Trainor and wants to be called John Trainor. Confusing?! He sent me around 5 copies of WWN.

Learning lessons in his Word,
Daniel Winters


August 6

00-08-23
Mr. Grotheer,
You requested me to identify myself: I was born in Kansas on April 26, 1961, moved to Madison Tennessee the next year, graduated from Highland Academy in 1979, MTSUniversity in 1983, worked in Atlanta as a computer programmer for 6 years, moved to Osaka Japan in 1989, worked at Country Life Restaurant, taught English, and studied Japanese. I was baptized into the SDA church in 1973 and have been a member since. Is this what you wanted to know about me?

In my letters to you, evidence from the Bible was given, and from the Spirit of Prophecy. You know this "issue" is NOT about your taking the Bible above the SOP. I myself mentioned that the SOP is the "lesser light". No, what this is about, is about coming up with ideas that cannot be supported by the Bible OR SOP. Why can i just sit back and allow you to step off the platform of truth and take my friends with you? You were given several very emphatic quotes showing that Jesus won't leave the Most Holy Place until "every case has been decided". In your reply to that letter, you did not touch on that which made me believe that you were in agreement. But then your August 6 letter arrived.

How long will you fight against the truth? Why do you pretend to believe in the Spirit of Prophecy, when it's obvious that you do not believe if it reproves down some pet theory? You say you believe in the primacy of the scriptures, but you didn't believe when shown from the Holy Word, so you were shown very explicitly from God's messenger in your native language that those views are unsound. Did you repent? No, you turn to the "Bible is best" slogan. Of course that's true! It's a non-issue.

You've been shown from the Bible and SOP that the "times of the gentiles" has not been totally fulfilled yet, that Jesus is most definitely in the Most Holy Place right now, and below you can see that this "man in linen" that you would have me believe is Jesus because the man in Ezekiel 9 is "clothed with linen", the High Priest on the day of Atonement, is not that at all. Rev. 19:6-8 says: "the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints". So ALL the saved multitude will wear fine linen. Why, reading the Bible without the Holy Spirit's guidance, you could turn to Rev. 18:16, and say that even Babylon herself must be the High Priest because she was "clothed with fine linen". This is from the 1858 Great Controversy, chapter 35: "An angel returned from the earth with a writer's ink-horn by his side, and reported to Jesus that his work was done, that the saints were numbered and sealed."

Both of your "evidently"s in your last letter are not as you think. I have read the Testimonies for the Church, and also have had courses in English Composition and proper form in letter writing. The small "i" i use is not for any false humility thing that you suppose, but having been questioned on why English uses a capital "I" but not a capital "YOU" by several Japanese friends, i've dropped that custom. First, you questioned me because i spelled Seventh-day with a capital "D". Now you say i don't have good letter form and change capital "I"s to small "i"s. You are showing how desperate you are to avoid coming to the truth. Just ignore the plain counsel from God's messenger, and then discredit someone standing up for the "sunlight" AND "moonlight", over the format of their letters or spelling.

Yesterday i received the material you sent about "Confessions of a Nomad", and the pope's interests in Jerusalem. I will write Pacific Press and the Ministerial Association to show them how terrible that book is, and ask them to confess their wrongs and recall that popish literature. The pope is working to fulfill end-time prophecy, and our leaders are helping him. We need to warn people, and get them to open their eyes to see that prophecy will be fulfilled - the beast WILL make their palace in Jerusalem, and will lord it over all the earth.

God has given you lots of insight into his Word. Please, please believe the instruction in the Bible AND the Spirit of Prophecy, even if you have to discard some cherished ideas. It would be wonderful to work with you to open people's eyes to the "overwhelming surprise" just before us:)

May we follow the Lord,
Daniel Winters


September 2

00-09-19
Hello Mr. Grotheer,
The Country Life Restaurant i worked at here in Osaka was operated by SDA laymen, and affiliated with those in America and elsewhere. My dad worked at Southern Publishing in the '60s, and my mom was a home-maker mostly. She mentioned having taken a Bible class from you in Madison.

I don't know if the WWN 4(00) is the one i saw or not. I do know that the most recent one i have is December '99, and the yellow booklet titled "Jerusalem in Bible Prophecy". That's great that you are checking carefully all the references to see if our understanding of the sanctuary is sound. The truth always shines clearer with inspection!

You seem to think the "moment of truth" is whether or not to believe in the primacy of the Scriptures. Mr. Grotheer, why don't you accept the Spirit of Prophecy as being from God? You say you believe it, but when your pet theories are shown to be false by it, you call for "The Bible Alone". Is that rightly dividing the word of God? Do you believe she advocated error? Did God give us a prophet so we can fit her writings into our own theories?

The "Great Controversy" is the correct motif. Please read the 1858 Great Controversy and vow to follow and support the teachings found in it. I've given you many clear statements from God's word, and the answers to your quest for truth lie in there if you have an open heart and study with a humble spirit.

May we follow God with all our heart, soul, and might,
Daniel Winters


September 28

00-10-24
Hello again Mr. Grotheer,
Thank you for adding to my treasure chest of memories about my father. I didn't know he had painted your house. Yes, my mother studied the Awakening for many years, but rejected it in 1972 when RDB came out against the Spirit of Prophecy.

A packet of materials from you came on Sep. 30th after about a 7-week trip! It contained the WWN from April to August. The August issue pretty well clears up your position regarding the Spirit of Prophecy. Anyone who is sincerely searching for truth will realize that you have set up a straw man by saying that if you believe the Spirit of Prophecy is from God then you are following the "new doctrine". Thus you set yourself firmly on the side of the historics whom you have such little regard for. Quite an amazing acrobatic feat!

Mrs. White saw visions, and wrote out the words that God gave her. Why are you so dead-set to try and downgrade them? Could it be because they reprove you for making up some pet-theory about the "times of the gentiles" being fulfilled already? The Sanctuary types set up by God are not in error, and neither are his prophets. It's us trying to fit them into our own ideas without the Holy Spirit's leading that causes problems. The same Holy Spirit that gave Daniel & John visions, is the same one that gave Ellen White visions. God doesn't contradict himself!!

I'm asking you to make a public repentance for downgrading God's messenger. Please do not lead any more souls astray. If you don't wish to repent, then please make it even clearer that you don't believe Ellen White was given God's words. Your soul is precious, and i'm sure it would be very interesting to talk to you in heaven one day:) May God give you strength to follow him fully,
Daniel Winters


PS: William Grotheer never replied to this last letter.

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