{"id":471,"date":"2011-07-21T14:15:10","date_gmt":"2011-07-21T07:15:10","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/great-controversy-movie.com\/blog\/?p=471"},"modified":"2012-04-02T18:55:59","modified_gmt":"2012-04-02T11:55:59","slug":"alberto-treiyer-historicist-scholar-at-3abn-symposium-on-trumpets-of-revelation","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/great-controversy-movie.com\/blog\/alberto-treiyer-historicist-scholar-at-3abn-symposium-on-trumpets-of-revelation\/","title":{"rendered":"Alberto Treiyer, historicist scholar at 3abn symposium on trumpets of Revelation"},"content":{"rendered":"

Recently i found a review of what happened at the 3abn symposium on the 7 Trumpets of Revelation that was held last February. Since i found it on the site of Brother Alberto Treiyer, i sent him a email. The following is our exchange that concluded yesterday.<\/p>\n

My conclusion from this exchange, is that the Historicists who cling to an “all-completed” theory for the 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets of Revelation (except for the 7th trumpet), know that they do not have the Biblical support for their position that people who see a future fulfillment do.
\n—————
\nHello Brother Treiyer,
\nRecently i found your review of the recent symposium on the trumpets of Revelation held at 3ABN, and being extremely interested in this subject, have made some comments on your review. My comments are in blue. (for this blog post, i put his writing in blockquote, and my writing in normal type.)<\/p>\n

SYMPOSIUM ON THE TRUMPETS OF REVELATION
\nDr. Alberto R. Treiyer
\nadventistdistinctivemessages.com<\/a>
\n3 ABN February 18-20, 2011 <\/p>\n

The symposium was organized by 3ABN after the reaction of many viewers to the conference of Pr. Kenneth Cox (a well known retired evangelist who gives seminars on Revelation), based on the trumpets, toward the end of July, 2010. The discomfort of the public had to do with his introduction of a futuristic interpretation of this section of Revelation (he had included Al Qaida in the trumpets). <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is an entirely subjective, extremely negative review of Pr. Cox’s teaching, which may be warranted or not. But usage of the word “discomfort” is unusual, and not fair to the pastor. <\/p>\n

There were 3 views, an historicist view, futurist view, and spiritualized view.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is extremely interesting. I had not heard of the spiritualized view being propounded in modern times by Seventh-day Adventists, but am not surprised, as many Adventists soon after the Great Disappointment spiritualized away the 2nd coming of Jesus. So now we see this error spreading into prophetic interpretation? hmmmm. We must be near the end!<\/p>\n

Both futurists and spiritualists cannot offer a clear projection of the prophetic dates specified in the fifth and sixth trumpets.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Br. Treiyer, reading Revelation in order, as written, believing the words to be from God, leads one to the inescapable conclusion that the 7 Trumpets are in the future. This position is affirmed by the facts that: 1. The Trumpets do not sound until the Sealing of the 144,000 is completed. As it is self-evident that the Sealing has not completed as i write this in 2011, we can know without a doubt that the 7 Trumpets have not sounded yet. 2. The 5th Trumpet has locusts only hurting those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. As of 2011, no one in history has had the seal of God in their foreheads, so the 5th Trumpet cannot have possibly happened yet. 3. The last 3 Trumpets are so bad as to be called “woes”, and nothing in history since the flood of Noah has been able to be called a “woe” for the whole world. So we see that the last 3 Trumpets have not been blown yet. Therefore, your whole point here of futurists not offering “a clear projection of the prophetic dates specified in the 5th and 6th trumpets” is clearly not applicable as they are future events.<\/p>\n

Since the tenth century, however, many started to realize that the antichrist prophesied in 2 Thessalonians 2 and the books of Daniel and Revelation was the bishop of Rome.
\nThis was the classical view of Protestantism from the seventeenth to the nineteenth centuries.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is the problem, Brother. You rightly reject other methods of interpretation, because a further revealing of the scroll of history makes one rightly reject previous interpretations. This is what us “futurists” are doing, because we see many things written in the prophecies that have not taken place yet, no matter how much force-fitting is performed by the historicists. We see a further unveiling of the scroll, and are moving into line with the unfolding of truth, rather than just accepting ideas because that was the “classical view”. Surely you see this – we must move forward on the path of truth, never throwing away precious truths already revealed, but always open to new insights into the Word of God, especially in regard to the prophecies.
\n<\/p>\n

The seals predict the progressive declension and apostasy of the Christian Church, and the sixth seal deals with the signs of the time of the end. The first four trumpets foretold the Barbarian invasions of the Western Roman Empire (Visigoths, Vandals, Huns, and Heruli). The fifth and sixth trumpets were regarded as depicting the Saracens and the Turks respectively, reaching to August 11, 1840. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

It is your interpretation what the Seals represent when you write that they “predict the progressive declension and apostasy of the Christian Church”. In fact, there is abundant evidence that they are future events also!<\/p>\n

This official position of our church was reiterated several times along the years, in the General Conference Sessions of 1883, through a committee named by the GC who gave the report at the end of the congress and declared that the historicist view adopted formerly by our church was foundational for the prophetic faith of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Thank you for this information about the “official position” of our church. In the 3ABN newsbite about this symposium it is written: “the SDA church has no official position on the seven trumpets”. I have studied this for many years, and talked to many people, and did not know myself, and no one else i’ve interacted with either, that our church has an official position regarding the historicist view. Yes, i understand that our church has taught the historicist view, and yes, i agree that God led William Miller and other people of that time to those conclusions. That was his plan to bring them up to a point of time. But does that mean that is the final fulfillment of those prophecies? Does that mean they are forever finished and we can basically just forget about studying them anymore? When the leader of that movement, a man led by God – William Miller – did not even have a clue about what the Seal of God is, shouldn’t it behoove us to take a fresh look at the prophecies to see if with our further understanding today, might there not be new truths for us? To lend support to this view, is the fact that the prophecies especially are for the 144,000, and the 144,000 are not even made up yet!<\/p>\n

Jan Paulien said: “The ‘historical’ events for which we are looking are not as likely to deal with politics and nations and ethnic groups as with ideas and philosophies and great trans-national movements throughout the NT era.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I agree with very little that Br. Paulien says regarding the prophecies, but his logic here is just as reasonable or even more so than those who say “no, it must relate to the ebb and flow of nations only – specifically the Roman nation”.<\/p>\n

The fifth trumpet, in Paulien’s view, has to do with secularization from the French revolution (Marxism – Communism – Materialism – Evolution – Rationalism – Ecumenism – Spiritualism). The sixth trumpet would be, always in his scope, a union of secular-capitalism, communism, Islam and the third world with any form of Christianity. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Again, i do not agree with Br. Paulien, but his view makes just as much or more sense than the historicist view. The historicist view has interpreted the 5th and 6th trumpets to be Islam, when there is no evidence for such a position, except a desire to fit the prophecy to something in the past. This type of thinking is probably what is fueling the current craze among us conservative SDAs currently to go for conspiracy theories, to fit today’s headlines with the prophecies.<\/p>\n

What to do with the heavenly sanctuary connections which show us that only the seventh trumpet takes place during the time of the priestly ministry in the Most Holy Place (Rev 11:15-19)? <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

A careful study shows no such thing.<\/p>\n

It was heard again and again during the symposium on the trumpets that this section of Revelation is difficult, the most hard to understand. But this section of Revelation enjoyed the greatest consensus during the Protestant Reformation and along the history of our prophetic movement. Why is it now becoming so intriguing and confusing? <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Because now we can see that the historicist model cannot properly account for everything in the prophecies – like the locusts only hurting those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads? People just 200 years ago had no clue what the seal of God was, and just skipped that part of the prophecy. We know what it is today, so can properly interpret it.<\/p>\n

In order to deny the historicist interpretation, they ridiculed Uriah Smith as much as they could, and stated, emphatically, that the date of August 11, 1840, was not fulfilled and had nothing to do with the prophecy of the sixth trumpet. Again and again was emphasized that even Josiah Litch abandoned this interpretation sometime later in his life. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Josiah Litch abandoned the day-for-year principle later in his life. Uriah Smith did not follow the Testimonies, and was even singled out in 1892 by Ellen White as being the person who had caused the most damage in the previous 2 years.<\/p>\n

She said, literally, “in the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest… The event exactly fulfilled the prediction.” She dealt not only with the prediction of Josiah Litch, but also with the “fulfillment of prophecy” (that of the sixth trumpet). <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

There must be 2 witnesses before we believe a report. I love Ellen White very much, and believe what she wrote and published to be the words of God. In reading many of her books, it is easy to see that while the earlier books had no historical quotes from other authors, later works, especially after Uriah Smith became chief editor, did. <\/p>\n

[An effort was done to ridicule the importance of the date 1833, as well as the earthquake of 1755 in Lisbon, which revealed a lack of knowledge of historical facts that no one took time to answer in the symposium.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

1833 showed a good display of falling stars in New England, which lent some credibility to the idea that Jesus would be coming back soon. 1755 is another force-fit to fulfill a prophecy by any means available, just as the 1833 event did. However, it is easily understood that these events historicists like to point to in the past for their fulfillment, have a future fulfillment, as these things all happen after the abomination of desolation is set up, an event which has not happened yet. Of course Ellen White is used by God to write that the shaking of the powers of heaven is still future to her day too, so for someone today to point to 1833 as the fulfillment of Matthew 24:29 is not considering the facts.<\/p>\n

Uriah Smith did not invent anything. He kept the legacy that we received from the Protestant Reformation from the seventeenth century to the nineteenth century, including the millerites. We may affirm today the same thing by quoting the testimony of secular historians. Their evaluation of history confirms the fulfillment of all the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, not only that of the trumpets. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is one of the biggest things that led me to restudy the prophecies of the end time, and come to the conclusion i hold today – that many of the things we have traditionally taught as having occurred in the past, will have a future fulfillment. By God’s grace, i have put up 4 of William Miller’s books on the internet, typing them in letter by letter. It was a great learning experience. And it also taught me a very important lesson – William Miller was led by God to make every prophecy finish by 1843! It seems so obvious, but overlooked by nearly all of us Seventh-day Adventists. So we should reexamine those conclusions, and see if it fits the words today, with our increased light on those words. Yes, Uriah Smith basically just kept the line going that William Miller and then James White worked on, having everything finished in the past.<\/p>\n

To the additional argument that Josiah Litch abandoned the interpretation of the year 1840 as being fulfilled in the precise date he gave, I replied that he also dropped the date 1844 which we are still keeping because the date was well chosen. We may understand him because he was disappointed that the Lord did not come when He was expected to come. But after realizing what was expected to happen in 1844, according to the Bible, our forefathers in prophecy and mission kept all those dates, as we do today. Because this is the truth. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is incorrect reasoning. Josiah Litch is not the one who originally came up with the 1843 date or the 1844 date. But he IS the man who first came up with the August 1840 date. To have him later reject that date is very big, almost as big as it would have been if William Miller had repudiated the 1843 date, or Samuel Snow the October 22, 1844 date. Please give the reason why we should believe the man when he came up with the idea, and not believe him when he rejects the idea he came up with.<\/p>\n

Some portions of Revelation were not and could not be understood by the readers of the end of the first century, neither by John (see 1 Pet 1:10-12).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Neither by William Miller.<\/p>\n

Again, were our historicist forefathers wrong when they saw the connection of the hails with an army that fell upon Rome from the northern European lands (first trumpet); the connection of the blazing mountain with an army that fell upon Rome from the hot lands of north Africa (second trumpet); and the star that falls from heaven in the third and fifth trumpets, as armies that came from the east like the stars of heaven, to invade the Roman territory? Not per se. While sometimes these connections are not really necessary, they may be legitimately kept as an additional evidence of its fulfillment. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

They were correct in interpreting them that way at that time, as that was the will of God. With increased light today, we are held accountable for more, and if we stop at where our forefathers stopped, then we are guilty of the same stagnation as the Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists etc. who were all at the vanguard of new light in their day, but later fell away because of not advancing in the light.<\/p>\n

Jon Paulien repeated several times that we may gather all the statements of E. G. White and cause her to say whatever thing we want.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That is unfortunately true. The reason is, is that there have been so many compilations and massagings and editings, that it is difficult to know what to believe, unless one goes back to the original books. Even the E. G. White Estate admits publicly that the changes to the 1911 Great Controversy were done by committee. So one can find statements that are 180 degrees opposite what was in the 1888 edition of the same book!<\/p>\n

According to E. G. White, the sealed book of Rev 5 was not yet taken and opened. This shows us that at the inauguration, that book was not yet sealed. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

“Not yet taken and opened\u201d at what point in time?<\/p>\n

J. Paulien announced that he is trying to form a kind of Biblical Research Institute in Loma Linda.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Bad news!<\/p>\n

But, please! Let us progress in our understanding and interpretation of the apocalyptic prophecies along the same lines as our forefathers! <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

By following William Miller’s rule of interpretation #13: “To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfilment of a prophecy. If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the true event. But if one word lacks a fulfilment, then you must look for another event, or wait its future development. For God takes care that history and prophecy doth agree, so that the true believing children of God may never be ashamed.” we will not only hold to the everlasting truth that they held to, but also be moving forward with Jesus on the path that leads to the eternal city.
\n———-
\nPlease may we do all under the leading of the Holy Spirit to lead our people to a clearer understanding of the prophecies, so we can be unified and ready for the soon coming Time of Trouble.<\/p>\n

Keep your eyes up on Jesus,
\nDaniel Winters
\n***************************************
\nReply from Alberto Treiyer:<\/p>\n

I started to read your blue comments but I stop when I saw that you have not read my book The Seals and the Trumpets. Brother, read that book, the most documented book regarding the trumpets under a historicist perspective, and you will find your key questioning answered. Blessings, Alberto.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

***************************************
\nPlease show me where i can read your book online then.<\/p>\n

Thank you,
\nDaniel Winters
\n***************************************
\nFrom Alberto Treiyer:<\/p>\n

You cannot read my book online. It is sold in the ABCs, and I do it also. www.adventistdistinctivemessages.com<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

***************************************
\nVery well, then please answer this one paragraph at least:<\/p>\n

Br. Treiyer, reading Revelation in order, as written, believing the words to be from God, leads one to the inescapable conclusion that the 7 Trumpets are in the future. This position is affirmed by the facts that: 1. The Trumpets do not sound until the Sealing of the 144,000 is completed. As it is self-evident that the Sealing has not completed as i write this in 2011, we can know without a doubt that the 7 Trumpets have not sounded yet. 2. The 5th Trumpet has locusts only hurting those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. As of 2011, no one in history has had the seal of God in their foreheads, so the 5th Trumpet cannot have possibly happened yet. 3. The last 3 Trumpets are so bad as to be called “woes”, and nothing in history since the flood of Noah has been able to be called a “woe” for the whole world. So we see that the last 3 Trumpets have not been blown yet. Therefore, your whole point here of futurists not offering “a clear projection of the prophetic dates specified in the 5th and 6th trumpets” is clearly not applicable as they are future events.<\/p>\n

Thank you,
\nDaniel Winters
\n***************************************
\nFrom Alberto Treiyer:<\/p>\n

Sorry. I don’t answer questions like this by the internet. Read my book and you will find a wide biblical and historical documentation on the matter, Alberto.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

***************************************
\nSorry you feel this way Brother. It has been my long experience that people who do not answer straight questions are not telling the truth. I hope that is not the case this time. If what you believe can be supported by the inspired words, why would anyone charge to understand them? Please understand that i have no easy method to purchase your book, and to force one to spend money to get a question answered is certainly foreign to all the true men and women of God i have ever known.<\/p>\n

Please consider these things.<\/p>\n

Keep your eyes on Jesus,
\nDaniel Winters
\n***************************************
\nFrom Alberto Treiyer:<\/p>\n

Sorry. Many people like you ask me questions on different matters. For a certain time I answered everything. But I had to take a firm decision of not to allow the devil to occupy my time in such a way as to hinder me of preparing more material. I am giving seminars everywhere, and concerning the trumpets I have about 500 slides. I wrote a new book on the trumpets, simplified, to help those who don’t take time to read what I wrote with a tremendous amount of documentation as I did in The Seals and the Trumpets (more than 400 pages).<\/p>\n

But since you are testifying of a presumable “long experience” let me tell you that I have also a “long experience” with people like you, who ask questions not to try to understand but to satisfy their curiosity…, Alberto. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n

***************************************
\nMay God help you to repent, Brother.
\nDaniel Winters
\n***************************************
\nFrom Alberto Treiyer:<\/p>\n

May the Lord heal you from your pride.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

***************************************
\nSo this looks to be the end of our discussion. I surely didn’t do this all to “satisfy my curiosity”, i want to know the truth about the prophecies, so i can be ready myself, and help teach others to be ready also.<\/p>\n

Lord, may your people be able to stand together on the platform of truth, so we can be ready for the soon coming Time of Trouble, warn others of the 7 Trumpets, and eagerly look for your return.
\n<\/font><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Recently i found a review of what happened at the 3abn symposium on the 7 Trumpets of Revelation that was held last February. Since i found it on the site of Brother Alberto Treiyer, i sent him a email. The following is our exchange that concluded yesterday. My conclusion from this exchange, is that the …<\/p>\n

Alberto Treiyer, historicist scholar at 3abn symposium on trumpets of Revelation<\/span> Read More »<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"site-sidebar-layout":"","site-content-layout":"","ast-main-header-display":"","ast-hfb-above-header-display":"","ast-hfb-below-header-display":"","ast-hfb-mobile-header-display":"","site-post-title":"","ast-breadcrumbs-content":"","ast-featured-img":"","footer-sml-layout":"","theme-transparent-header-meta":"","adv-header-id-meta":"","stick-header-meta":"","header-above-stick-meta":"","header-main-stick-meta":"","header-below-stick-meta":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[5],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-471","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-christian-study"],"yoast_head":"\nAlberto Treiyer, historicist scholar at 3abn symposium on trumpets of Revelation - Great Controversy<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"http:\/\/great-controversy-movie.com\/blog\/alberto-treiyer-historicist-scholar-at-3abn-symposium-on-trumpets-of-revelation\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Alberto Treiyer, historicist scholar at 3abn symposium on trumpets of Revelation - Great Controversy\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Recently i found a review of what happened at the 3abn symposium on the 7 Trumpets of Revelation that was held last February. 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Since i found it on the site of Brother Alberto Treiyer, i sent him a email. The following is our exchange that concluded yesterday. 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